I have a friend over here who's daughter went and studied medicine, then did a year as a GP, then decided she wanted to go into psychiatry - her husband did the same, they both graduated at the same time. To listen to her when she talks without naming patients of course, she is different from the GP that I knew her as - she is definitely now a Psychiatrist the way she looks at things. I've had many discussions with out and I would absolutely agree with you Rumpy.

They all come away with a 'syndrome' worries me, that could be me someday LOL

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Since we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our minds, our one duty is to furnish it well~Peter Ustinov

They will come up with syndromes and disorders for OP... that is FOR SURE.

From the little I can see from afar... some sort of "Anxiety" disorder is very likely... The GAD thing seems as good a label as any.

As I said I fail to see how it helps Nel?

It's GOT to help Op.. whatever psychological labels they stick on him. It might well be taken into account to EXPLAIN why he reacted as he did... to so readily think there was an intruder.. as well as why he reacted as he did in response to "the intruder".... and so that speaks to the crime and the verdict itself. And of course any old syndrome or disorder is the sort of thing that gets brought up in mitigation before sentencing... all good for OP.... and now it will be "OFFICIAL" and not just defence experts duelling with prosecution experts.

I really see this as a tactical blunder by Nel. He would have been better off with his own pet psychiatrist.. and a duel with the defence psychiatrist.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Note also... all the psychiatric assessment stuff sort of assumes that OP's version was in play.... Nel's spoeculative "state version" is being sidelined

It will be forgotten by the time we have the month? break, then assessment report, and the final defence witness also speaking to psychological issues around "fight" or "flight"...What was Nel thinking?

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Having slept on this news... I guess it was inevitable that there would be a psychiatric evaluation given that the Defence presented a psychiatrist as a witness.

I guess I was just fed up with yet another delay yesterday.


I do think that this should have been done earlier on, and in fact the trial should have been more about this sort of stuff...OP's mental state, motives etc on the night. I still think a lot of the trial was a waste of time... trying to force a speculative State Version of events with very scant and ambiguous ear witness testimony and crime scene evidence that that at best came with huge doubts due to police mishandling etc.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

However, having conceded that the Psychiatric evaluation is inevitable.. I still cringe when psychologists and psychiatrists are involved in a trial. Assessment is to some extent subjective, and you can pretty much get any opinion you want to suit your case. Throw in psychologists with their own pet "agenda" (such as battered woman syndrome) and it can be hard to get an unbiased assement and evaluation.
For those who followed the Jodi Arias trial... refer to the nonsense that went on there.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Note.... unless this panel of psychiatrists diagnose OP as a "narcissistic sociopath" with anger management problems, who was subtly abusive to Reeva in text messages.. indicating that he would also be physically abusive, the the posters at True Gossip Forums are not going to rate them as "proper" psychiatrists
They wont be happy with any namby pamby "excuses" from OP and understanding that he felt especially vulnerable, and so justifying his actions. Any sadness, depression and anxiety exhibited by OP will, of course all be an act! The real OP is a nasty violent man who chased his girlfriend around the house on his stumps... and then shot her "in cold blood" while she sought refuge in the toilet.

_________________
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___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

From TalkLeft.......

Oscar Pistorius Judge Orders Out-Patient Evaluation
By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Thu May 15, 2014 at 08:05:00 AM EST



The judge in Oscar Pistorius' case yesterday rejected forcing him to undergo a 30 day inpatient evaluation. Instead, saying it was not supposed to be punishment, she ordered an out-patient evaluation. The evaluation will take place at a hospital on the outskirts of Pretoria, and Oscar will be able to spend nights at his uncle's house, where he has been living since the shooting.

That's good news for Oscar and quick thinking by his lawyer, who suggested it as an alternative to the typical in-patient eval.. His family gave a statement afterwards, saying they were pleased by the decision.

The only people who seem disappointed are the journalists covering the trial, since it throws their schedules into disarray.

It doesn't seem like Oscar's sanity is at issue -- the judge seems more concerned with whether his mental condition might have contributed to the offense, a factor she can take into account at sentencing if he's convicted on the lesser charge, which has no mandatory minimum penalty.

....more at link
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2014/5/15 ... aluation#1

_________________
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___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Well let it heretoforth be announced that Herr Nel has stepped in it now---took a perfectly poor case to begin with and made it even less likely for conviction.


The psychiatric panel will find the same thing that Dr. Vorster did and it will give great credence to OP for his actions just as he testified.

Also if you listened to Judge Masipa, she even gave a clue to her thoughts and how she was thinking as the trial has developed to this point.

She chose her words very carefully and it was illustrative of what she was thinking. She actually stated the defense case almost to the letter in a generalized way.

If the prosecution had simply brought a charge of manslaughter or the equivalent CH, it would have been very hard to defend against.

Even though that is still available within the options of her findings Judge M has available to her even with the premeditated murder as charged, she has now thrown the door completely open for Pistorius to be found not guilty entirely due to an elevated anxiety disorder and therefore not being criminally responsible for his actions.

It opened the door for him to use it as a defense now if they find he has any kind of mental "illness." To wit: a general anxiety disorder. It's just been handed to Roux as a gift which only the judge could do because Pistorius could not change his proffer defined by statute language as their defense once it's submitted and trial commences. His defense was putative defense but does not necessarily have to be now as the judge explained.

I would bet a mortgage payment the head doctors will find the same thing Dr. Vorster did and probably to even higher extremes. Dr Vorster sat on panels for referrals and she didn't even think he should be referred.


I have always said it is critical to take into account all the history, demographics, personal limitations and proven defcon 1 state he has always been observed to be in and view the killing with those enormously relevant factors.

The killing has to be seen solely as if one was in his "shoes" which Judge Masipa and the super sharp gal assessor is doing.

Nel has opened his own Pandora's Box now.

How stupid can he be

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Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Legal panel discussion:

David O'Sullivan and the legal panel, Advocate Mannie Witz, Attorney Khanya Jele and Judge Chris Greenland discuss OP's defence to the charge of murder.

Why commit OP for assessment





OP's defence





Why OP has to be an in patient

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Do not go gentle into that good night.
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As an aside .....

In comments about these videos I have seen it said that if OP is acquitted he will have to flee SA?
And it further claimed that no other countries (including China) would take him?

I really do think that people get lost in the Twilight Zone of True Gossip Forums. It is NOT the real world. Most people in every country do not follow this, nor any other case. This case in particular is NOT attracting much attention in USA and in the Countries where it is being followed a little more closely, it is STILL only by a select few that follow cases. Besides all that... no matter how much a case is BIG NEWS while a trial is running.... it is soon forgotten totally. Whatever the outcome of this trial... almost nobody will know what it was about in a year or so.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I agree with the first video (now) I do think the defence team should have done psychological (psychiatric) assessment early on.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I do note that if OP is not given special treatment... then assessment could be delayed. OP could even be sent to an institution pending the assessment! This trial could be put on hold for YEARS.

I assume that it WILL get special treatment and that wont happen

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I think they will agree with Dr. Vorster that the court should find that he had diminished responsibility for killing her. I wonder about the impact of her statement saying anyone who had generalized anxiety disorder and carried a gun was dangerous. Shouldn't they consider a level/degree although how to figure a criteria for a measure would seem rough. I wonder what the DSM shows.

I don't think OP has to be an inpatient. The act gives that discretion to the judge. Besides, the judge can order whatever she wants and I don't think there is a means for Nel to challenge it before verdict.

I think the Judge made it clear that she preferred it to be done with OP as an outpatient.. and I agree that a Judge can order what she prefers. However, I am learning to NOT predict details of how things go in SA

I can see that there could CLINICAL reasons put forward for such a psychological assessment to be done as an in-patient..... the desirability of having the patient cut off from outside influences etc. It may be that the panel of psychiatrist require OP be an in-patient in order to do a "proper" assessment?

Also there is the question of "special treatment". How unusual is it to do such assessments as an out patient? Some level of "special" treatment is inevitable given the nature of this case, but I imagine there is still a desire that it not be seen as pandering to OP?

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Well I still can't get over the fact that there were no background reports or psychiatric assessment done way back in 2013.

I was reminded of something this week, which I think is true. We tend to talk of South Africa as a first world country, indeed it is not, South Africa is still a third world country - i got this from someone who has lived there for 40 years.

Another thing to consider, and it will have been considered, is that when any South African keeps a gun, like a lot of other places (here in the UK too) he has to sign and agree with the regulations of using that weapon, and occasions when he or she is permitted to fire the weapon either in public or in private.

Shooting at the bathroom thinking there was an intruder, unfortunately for OP, is one of those things not allowed. He would have known this from the paperwork he was given. So, in fact, whether it was 'someone' or Reeva - he was still in the wrong, but from the start he has admitted that.

This is one of the reasons that I think if found guilty (sane) he will be given upwards of 20 years, if found guilty (insane) perhaps 15-20 in an institution of course, against his will.

Having said all of this, I still have not changed my mind that at best this should have been diminished responsibility on a case of Manslaughter - so far nothing has changed my mind,

Apologies for not being on much, I have been very ill this week.

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Since we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our minds, our one duty is to furnish it well~Peter Ustinov

Hi Wroughead... hope you are feeling a little better?

Once we see the details on Tuesday, I assume we can all take a bit of a break from OP.

I see at some True Gossip places that the lunatics have taken over the asylum... with time to "speculate".
The facts of the case, time line of events etc are pretty clear now... there is not a lot to be gained by "debating" what took place. The evidence is there and people have made what they will of it ad nauseam. I think it is clear what the Judges will make of it too. (We will see) There is not a "State Version" of events as such... other than their speculation in regard an argument with no evidence to support it, let alone PROVE it. OP's thinking, motivation, reasoning, etc should have been what the case was about from the outset, but we have only got to it now.
It is "unfortunate" that psychiatrists are involved... in one sense the verdict in this case is now in their hands rather than in a Judges hands, and THAT is a scary thought. Depending on what the Psychiatrists decide, almost all the evidence we have seen presented in the trial so far is irrelevant, a side issue at most. If psychiatry was an EXACT science ... pure medicine that could be revealed in scans and lab tests etc then all might be well. But it's NOT. Any psychiatric diagnosis or opinion is subjective to some extent. We have in effect replaced a Judge (assisted by assessors) with a Psychiatrist (assisted by the rest of a panel). A Judge is trained/experienced at making decisions in such circumstances. A Judge should know how to give weight to evidence etc. A psychiatrist may well make such decisions from time to time, but it is not what their primary training and experience is about. We almost need to have a separate "Psychiatric trial"... with the psychiatric panel presiding. We need somebody who is trained as a Judge as well as a psychiatrist. As extensive as this assessment may be, I can't see it rising to that level of investigation and evaluation. It is as bad as, if not worse than, throwing the decision over to a Jury. In the same way that the verdict can be dependant on "jury selection"... this case may well hinge on WHO is selected for this panel of psychiatrists.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

THE OSCAR PISTORIUS TRIAL: COULD HE WALK?
Blog - David Dadic

We had incredibly reached the eleventh week of the trial of the decade and with it, unsurprisingly, came the peak in Oscar fatigue. The viewership numbers of the Oscar channel seemingly declined (or at least should have, consequent to my 3 appearances) and other focuses such as the elections and the horrific events in Nigeria seemed and were far more important and relevant. For the most part the general populace appeared rather exasperated and bored by the subject (save for a few thousand core die-hard “fans” (and probably me) who had a seemingly unrelenting vampire-like thirst for it) particularly in light of the recent defence witnesses who were either, repetitively giving similar neighbour evidence regarding what they did or didn’t hear, or forensic ballistic evidence, who, save for the times they mentioned their drinking habits, gave rather incomprehensible scientific bullet evidence. I mean are we really interested in striations?

Then came to the stand one Dr. Meryl Vorster, a forensic psychiatrist and Vice-Dean at The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg and flipped the entire trial on its head. She breathed an emphatic sense of drama back into the inert court room by testifying to Oscar’s mental state prior to and at the time of the shooting and moreover, how such mental state was affected, and lead to, by his upbringing, amputation and exaggerated security concerns. She diagnosed him with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, otherwise known as GAD. Three letters which for all intents and purposes have replaced “I put it to you” as the colloquial tagline of the trial.

...more at link
http://whosyourdadic.com/2014/05/18/the ... d-he-walk/

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Tuesday.... here we go again.

At least we will get some idea of what this psychiatric assessment will entail.... or will we?

It would be nice to think that the details have all been finalised and the order drafted, but......

I won't be surprised if Nel (and Roux) have a bunch of excuses for having not finalised things. Maybe they will present arguement before the Judge today? Lets hope that they do not seek (and get granted) yet another adjournment.

I do wonder about the "in-patient" option. I can see (clinical) reasons why a comprehensive evaluation requires committal. It is quite different from attendance as an in-patient. We'll see.

At this stage I think the Psych assessment needs to be seen to be as comprehensive as it is in cases normally. Another reason that perhaps OP needs to be committed (just for the appearance of normal procedure), and if it normally takes 30 days... then so-be-it!!

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light