Nel questions Oscar's toilet noise claim
2014-04-11 14:38

Pretoria – Murder accused Oscar Pistorius was asked on Friday why he would think an intruder would walk into his toilet and close the door, during his trial on Friday.

"You reasonably thought an intruder came through your window, walked into the toilet and closed the door?" prosecutor Gerrie Nel asked him in the North Gauteng High Court in Pretoria.

Pistorius replied: "I'm not sure what an intruder would do if he was caught off guard."

...more at link
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar ... m-20140411

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Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

SAHRC asked to probe Oscar's cross-examination
2014-04-11 14:51

Johannesburg - The SA Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) has been asked to probe the manner in which State prosecutor Gerrie Nel conducted his cross-examination of murder accused Oscar Pistorius.

"We have received an e-mail with an intention to lodge a complaint over the utterances made in court," SAHRC spokesperson Isaac Mangena said on Friday.

"We have acknowledged and asked the complainant to lodge a formal complaint by filling out a form. We will then assess the complaint as per our complaints handling procedure to [decide] whether it is something for the commission to investigate or not," said Mangena.

The complainant, Jan Landman, a former commissioner of the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious, and Linguistic Communities, requested that the SAHRC investigate and rule whether Nel was permitted to refer to Pistorius as a "liar" as he cross-examined him.

In the complaint Landman sent to the SAHRC, he said it was his opinion that in calling Pistorius a liar, Nel infringed on his right to a fair trial.

....more at link
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar ... n-20140411

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I am not normally a fan of "rights" organisations normally. They can be a PC make work type set-up.

However in this case I think SOMETHING has to be done to reign in this nasty little man.

He is a bully.

For heavens sake... he parsed OP's text message for imagined signs of some sort of verbal abuse/controlling behaviour. Yet his own performance in interrogating OP is clearly abusive. I wonder if Nel is "compensating" for abuse he suffered as a child.. otr perhaps he is trapped in an abusive relationship himself. Classic "Hen-pecked husband" syndrome.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Nel reminds me of "The School Master"

Pink Floyd- The Trial

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

If anyone is interested, Nancy Grace had 1 hour on Oscar P. tonight. Pictures of baby Oscar, etc. It is about over now, but there is always a re-run. Check your paper. 5 hours from now? 6 hours? Chn. HLN.

Sunday too a Special about Oscar and the trial. Chn. I.D. said 9, 8 central. Better check your paper for your time or just check in I.D. from maybe 5PM on at the top of the hour.

Thanks Joni....

I shudder to think of NG and her wilfully ignorant take on this case.. even without seeing the show I KNOW she is wrong

But as you say... if anybody is interested

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Hi R. Funny, on this case she is non-committal. That seems strange for her. Just kind of told the facts.... I think. lol
Thanks for putting on the videos of the trail. I spend as much time as I can on them. Very helpful.
Wow - they sure drag it out there. Much more than would be allowed here. This might go on for 3 months.

Did I hear the people in SA seem to be for Oscar? I can't read the Judge. I guess she is an old pro!

The State, through it's witnesses has not quite given any comprehensive detailed version of events. It will be impossible for them to do that since there are "mutually exclusive" points between ear witnesses, and they are all totally at odds with some of the State's own expert witness testimony, and the hard irrefutable physical evidence. SOME of the State's witness testimony at least will have to be disregarded. That is NOT the sort of situation that leads to proof of ANYTHING,,, "Beyond reasonable doubt" The State's "case" comes with DOUBT built in

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

WHY would Roux intervene when Nel is making a fool of himself?

While Nel is digging himself into a hole, Roux does not want to hinder him. He certainly does not want to take Nel's spade off him.

There are lots of things that "don't make sense" to Nel. They make perfect sense to me, and I am sure also the defense and the Judge. (Roux has the opportunity to clarify things for the judge anyway). Nel's "confusion" is a gift, a good starting point to sharpen the defense points from. It is only through Nel's histrionics that Roux is getting a look at the version the State wants to propose. It is full of inconsistencies within itself. Their own "ear" witnesses disagree on some important points, and the interpretation that all the State witnesses have made is clearly at odds with the State's own expert witnesses and the real physical evidence.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

The reason that contamination of crime scene is such a serious matter is that you can not rely on photos at all. Certainly not to the extent of details seen in photos.

CLEARLY the cops dropped the ball as far as preserving the crime scene and evidence goes. You CAN NOT just pick and chose which bits are still ok to use as evidence. The whole lot should have been thrown out and the case dismissed. However, we are proceeding with the trial.
You are being simplistic (to make a point) suggesting that police set things up knowingly to portray a particular scene, but they DID move stuff, of that there is no doubt. If I had to guess, I would say it's likely they spread the duvet out to photograph it... the space big enough to spread it out had the fans in the way so they moved them. The little one on its lead towards the corner, and the bigger one on it's lead towards where we see it in the photo.... they could not have moved it anywhere else without first unplugging it. Who knows if they kicked the denim over a few inches, or picked it up while moving the duvet and then dropped it back where they thought it had been.

You simply can NOT rely on photo detail at all once the cops have been shown to have compromised the crime scene.

Pace yourself... Roux will clarify for you once Nel stops making an A$$ of himself.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Reasonable doubt is what it is.

The State DO have a burden to propose a version of events and PROVE that it is true BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT.

That is the rule in our common system of Jurisprudence. It is a VERY tough standard to achieve. A HUGE burden placed on the State... intentionally hard to achieve.

I didn't write the rules.



It is way beyond reasonable to assume that OP shot knowing that Reeva was behind the door.

It is totally UNREASONABLE to think that.

I would say that the whole notion of rational normal (ish) young man chasing his girlfriend into the toilet and shooting her is so daft as to be totally unbelievable, unless there is some STRONG evidence to prove that such an unbelievable event occurred. On the other hand, and on the face of things, I find it easier to believe that somebody might be spooked by a noise and fire at an imagined intruder.

The crux of this case is that OP did that, but unfortunately he "missed" the intruder and shot Reeva by accident.

That I find easily believable.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Reasonable doubt! Here here!

The infamous photo showing duvet.

I put it to you......

There is no logical reason why somebody in the course of normal duvet use would spread out a duvet like that. I see no other likely explanation other than a police photographer might well do that in order to photograph the duvet (brown spots)

The photographer clearly DID at some point take a photo of brown spots on the duvet.

In my own experience, I have known the duvet to fall off the end of the bed or be pushed off on a hot night... but it NEVER then spreads itself out as shown in the photo. Not once has this ever happened. Talk about something that "does not make sense"

Given that the area where the duvet has been spread out is the only area big enough in that part of the room, and given that the fans were exactly where OP says... the Cops would have had to move the fans before spreading out the duvet. Unless they unplugged the large fan, they would have to move it (and its lead) closer to the extension lead double socket. Exactly where the fan is shown in the photo. The small fan looks to have been plugged in near the HiFi etc... and was moved towards the corner (as shown in subsequent photos)

Given that the cops most certainly DID move items... and contaminate the crime scene, then one CAN NOT rely on photos, certainly not details that are only known from photos. The cops and prosecution created this problem for themselves. It is their burden to overcome the unreliability of evidence, especially any photos they took.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

We can always see NG on You Tube several days later, so it will be interesting, if I can stand being shouted at long enough, I'll tune in Joni - thanks for telling us about it.

I have my young niece and her boyfriend this weekend so am busy, but looking forward to the start of proceedings tomorrow, where according to SA law over the weekend OP is not allowed to contact his lawyer, so hope his family have counselled him well in the past few days.

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Since we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our minds, our one duty is to furnish it well~Peter Ustinov

I think OP has been given advice by his lawyers already before he started testimony

He would do Ok (ish)... if not for the meds and the tiredness.

Nel is being an asshole, (apparently it is permissible behaviour in SA) and anybody would struggle with such abuse and bullying. OP is like a small puppy (emotionally) and so an easy target for nasty Nel.

OP will survive. Roux can do a bit of damage control where needed.

I wonder if the people praising Nel realize exactly what it is that they are saying is acceptable from a prosecutor. He is the darling of the lynch mob now. They always are sure a defendant is guilty.... but I wonder if they, or somebody they know, was on the receiving end of Nasty Nel, how they would feel.

Bullies usually turn out to be cowards.

If Nel had a strong case he would have presented it as part of the State lead case. It seems like desperation to me if he is relying on "breaking" OP's testimony by what amounts to torture.. interrogation, bullying, abuse and badgering. Asking confusing questions just so he can harp on about "You are not listening, Mr Pistorius" Claiming that simple facts "do not make sense"... when they do. It is often Nel who is not listening.
I still have high hopes for the SA Judicial System. It may work out OK since there is no Jury to be swayed by Nel's histrionics.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Another reminder. Now WATCH ME forget! lol Will write a note to myself.
Chn. I.D. tonight ... Oscar Pistorious. Didn't know his brother was up on a murder charge?
Road accident - a cyclist. Carl Pistorious - read a Bio. Wow.

i am going to think about this case in the coming days - it will (for me) depend on how OP gives his evidence and how he handles himself after the week-end break when he's in the witness box.

_________________
Since we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our minds, our one duty is to furnish it well~Peter Ustinov

I have reviewed some of the STATE witness testimony on Video...

And I have no doubt at all that the sequence of events was as OP says.

Remember out of the entire neighbouthood (100's of potential ear witnesses) the State presented just 5.

And that includes 2 "couples" whose testimony is NOT independent (naturally).

These were the only people that the State could find out of 100's who would testify to "woman screams"... two only really: the Stipps and Burgers. Estelle van der Merwe testified to earlier "argument" and the shots and then crying (conceded that was Oscar), but not any screaming..... woman or otherwise.

So State has TWO couples who testify to screams. One of those couples is so far away as to be on the limit as far as being able to hear anything at all. They clearly MISSED the first bangs (shots). When you dig down a little in this small sample of testimony, it actually confirms OP's version and not the State hypothesis.
There really is not a lot to explain away as far as people mistaking OP's cries as a being a woman.
Remember the Burgers were far away, and not witnesses until well after the first set of bangs (shots). "Inspired" to volunteer testimony AFTER seeing the story in the news.

If you think about it:
What "does not make sense" is the State version that a guy would chase his girlfriend into the toilet and shoot her. That is bizarre and outside the norm. It is that version that needs a LOT of evidence to prove it before anybody would accept something so bizarre.

A paranoid guy (in SA) hearing a noise and thinking its a home invasion is easily believable

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Hi Wroughhead! I don't know of anyone who has been through such a horrific thing could then hold up against the Pit Bull. Why such a long long rein/rope? Like a fight with no Ref stopping it -- even when he should!!! Called badgering the witness, here in the U.S. This will take 8 months at this rate. I read somewhere or heard Oscar was tiring. Surely he went into this emotionally drained.
Then too, I guess his lawyers prep him, work with him ... nightly.

I have thought long and hard about this case, and the whole scenario of events seems odd to me. One obvious thing from a woman's point of view is that if this was a relationship that had trouble or, wasn't working out, they should both have realized that and gone their separate ways (in an ideal world that is), something was keeping them together and I think, despite what the state is trying to push on to us, this was a couple who were genuinely crazy about each other, I do believe that as she pointed out there may have been times when he scared her, but reading between the lines when she said it, I don't think she meant 'scared' as in that he might try to kill her, I do believe he had a temper, and I do believe he has a large ego - nothing different between him and other single and married sportsmen.

That is quite a large walled and gated estate, and I think it's odd that they only managed to dig up that small number of witnesses who to me appeared to be in concert with each other, and nothing would surprise me if they haven't met for dinner etc. - that's how it looks to me, there are so many similarities.

Ah well, perhaps we are all wrong - we will soon find out.

Hi Joni

Like the States and her in the UK it is my understanding that advice chit chat etc between lawyer and accused is not the same in South Africa - for example during this break in his trial since Friday, he is not permitted to talk to his lawyer at all. He will only see his lawyer when he appears in court on Monday - that's how it's done in South Africa.

I think the judge was beginning to see that Nel was, as you put it, 'badgering' the witness which is not supposed to happen, but she only said so on a very few occasions, perhaps this is because we are nearing the conclusion to this trial, but she has certainly intervened more this past week than in the past.

_________________
Since we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our minds, our one duty is to furnish it well~Peter Ustinov