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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:37 am 
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The one "guess" I am allowing myself is that TM used the can of drink in the plastic carry bag as a weapon.... swung it and hit GZ in the face (nose)... probably stunned GZ for quite a few seconds.

I don't have a huge investment in this hypothesis...if evidence shows it did not happen I will abandon it in an instant.

Now before people say "the can was in TM's hoodie pocket"... there is confusion about where things were found, or placed by LE.

And besides.... the can could have fallen loose and TM pick it up before the rest of the struggle proceeded. That would explain why a bag (the bag?) was found empty on the path.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:23 pm 
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I was a professional musician - out most mornings, sometimes 6 days a week at 3:00 AM trying to get home.
When a Cop's daughter was raped and killed around the area where I worked on a very very long winding exit ramp (where some areas could not
be seen from either the top nor bottom,) I decided to get a gun. After all, she was a star athlete, young, a college girl, AND daughter of a Cop?
Turned out he was a real killing machine. SHE was not his first!! Stalked them.

So - I did everything I had to do to legally carry a gun. NRA trained me. We get training like Cops get.
They also told me to get a 357 magnum - big one. I asked why - had to carry it in my purse, and it was heavy? They explained:
"To protect yourself - you have to sit there till he either breaks a window of your SUV, or tries to break the lock! It could be only a kind person trying to help you, or an off duty Cop, or an off duty Fireman, anybody!! YOU could KILL them!!! So you have to wait till they do something -
and have a big gun then - - to stop them! A little Beretta won't!!" They were teaching me, I think, to be a prudent, responsible gun owner.

I felt somehow early on the Zimmerman's are liars. Now we know they are. Trayvon doubled back? WHERE did that come form? George Zimmerman? Oh - so that makes it so? I want to see the physical evidence. I wonder too if they were ever fighting on the cement? Z had grass stains on the back of his shirt. BUT cement sounds more dangerous and makes a better self defense case I guess.

I heard on the show I.D. that it can't be self defense if only the ONE has a gun.

Truly I want a trial to happen. We need forensics and evidence since Zimmerman's side are all lying. Defendant's most always lie to save their necks... their family/friends too!

Never will I understand why Z. didn't take advantage of all the help PROS would give him, IF he had a Registered Neighborhood Watch Group.
Some don't like to have to answer to anybody, or to be told what to do. Maybe he needed some of those reinforcement meetings? I think so. AND TOO, they said they have great exposure and attract many more members if Registered. Z. didn't want a large group? WHAT did he have a group of 2? He and his vocal friend?

Yes, IF IF IF IF. Not a far stretch to stay in his vehicle. He was TOLD TO. THAT I feel is the bottom line of all of this. Registered NWG's tell them don't carry a gun. Why didn't he then** IF ON DUTY** leave his gun in the vehicle? Gave that little man power I think. Misguided power.
DON'T CONFRONT - NWG's also say. SO WHY DID HE?

He orchestrated, directed, initiated this whole thing. HE is supposed to be the PRO. The blame I feel, lies solely on him. I DO believe in IF'S and "looking back - and the "what if's", and I think the trial will too. What else will a trial do? WHAT would have happened if he acted sensible and prudent? Both would be alive today? Won't acting like a prudent man enter into this mix during a trial? Like what WERE his alternatives?? They surely will be examined, won't they? Getting out of his vehicle and following T. wasn't Z.'s ONLY OPTION... and I believe it went against all past experience/data that the pros have.

WHO knows if he identified himself? Trayvon's friend said early on - at the start (excited utterances? - legal term) Z said something like "What are you doing here?"

Cops and Registered Neighborhood Watch Groups are taught to calm things down, and deescalate thing. George would have been trained and had reinforcement meetings had he gone to Reg. NWG's meetings. Another one of his mistakes.

WE NEED a trial because they DO lie. The people I feel should know the forensics and evidence because the way this started - no charges - and that turned this case really really UGLY!!! IF he were my kid, I would want to know forensics and evidence, NOT the self serving statements of the defendant. They always lie. We saw some real pros, the Anthony's and their lawyers.

Please Z. defenders, do not be angry. I am not angry at you ... just stating how I think/feel. :86


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Joni.... I wouldn't mess with you and your 357 magnum :13
:31

You are right. There is LOTS we don't know.

WE have not heard GZ version at all directly.... but perhaps a broad idea of what it will be from surrogates.

The fact is... it will be the ONLY narrative when we hear it. TM will not get to offer an alternative obviously.

So all we can do is evaluate how much of GZ version we accept. With no alternative, though any alternative is mere speculation

People keep saying "GZ IS A PROVEN LIAR" .... give me a break!!!!
He is hardly that at all.... some inconsistencies is all....normal for anybody... nothing like say KC Anthony or Cindy or the rest of that circus.

GZ does not have to testify remember. The burden of PROOF is on the prosecution.... what in heavens name can they PROVE?.... IMO..... nothing!!!!!

EVEN IF GZ is as people fantasise........ there is NO EVIDENCE to show that.
(In that sense like the Joran Van der Sloot/Natalee Holloway case)... all the bloggers claim they KNOW he raped and murdered Natalee..... but there is NO EVIDENCE)

If people MUST remain convinced the GZ "did it".... they are destined to be disappointed.... because there is no evidence with which to prove it.....yet.

There may be more evidence released.. documents certainly.... and I will stand corrected if the evidence is there.... but I don't think it will be.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:47 pm 
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Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz now challenges Angela Corey to debate
Submitted by Charles Broward
June 11, 2012 - 12:36pm

Famed Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz continued his assault on State Attorney Angela Corey today, challenging her to a debate this morning on a Jacksonville news radio show.

The challenge comes less than a week after Dershowitz’s article was published on Newsmax.com, ripping Corey for threatening to sue the university over his criticism of her actions in charging George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin shooting.

....more at link
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/42 ... challenges

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:00 pm 
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I think over here, if a witness (if he ever does testify) or his wife who has been caught in a lie, they will be treated like this, I believe.

The Judge will usually instruct "You can then disregard everything they say as truth. and discount their entire testimony."
Very close to that.

I was married to a lawyer, picked up some tid-bits along the way. Used to listen a lot - over dinner. :47

One thing I overheard and thought was horrendous ... "Keep 'em off balance." One of my ex's tricks. I had never heard of or thought of that. Disgusting dirty game playing. :29


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Yes Joni.... so.. what if the Jury TOTALLY disbelieve him?

WHAT then do they believe? There is no other version other than guesses.

It would be a travesty to convict anyone on what you just guess happened.

So even IF GZ story is not accepted.. he still has to be found not guilty... innocent untill PROVEN guilty... again echoes of the JVS case and all the hysteria around that. You can scream "He's a proven liar" all you want.... but his "lies" are the only version there is.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:16 pm 
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People lie. We all know defendants do... look what they have riding on it, their lives.

Evidence and forensics - don't lie. (Heard that on I.D. chn.-- and I do believe that.)

I will be satisfied going with that - just evidence and forensics.

Think I'll go take a swim - :72

:52


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:25 pm 
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yes

Lawyers lie too.
A lawyer (in this case prosecution) can throw out ANY fanciful version of events they can dream up (ref:Baez Opening Statement).
But the jury (one hopes) require them to back that up with some evidence. It is NOT what happened in the KC case... so who knows what will happen this time. In theory the burden of proof is on the prosecution.. and the defendant has the benefit of reasonable doubt.

I see no way in hell that this case is going to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.. in fact, I still think it should be settled at a SYG hearing (It there is one)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:39 pm 
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They sure do lie! Bozo's opening statement. Horrendous. WHAT KIND of laws do we have that allows that - and he doesn't have to back it up? Any of it? :78

I don't know much about Stand Your Ground Law but I did read that one of the men who made that bill said "SYG law doesn't apply here in the Zimmerman case. " Don't know why.

I think it might have been a good law regarding one protecting their "homestead". When out in the streets ... is it quite a different story? Did they think - - - that far? Is it far easier now to just kill? (No witness.) Then say "He attacked me, I was just defending myself, standing my ground."

Should they then just walk away? We should believe them? What about the family of the victim? How can they really KNOW what happened? Should there be a trial to make sure it really was as they say? I only trust evidence and forensics now after learning about the lying that goes on in court, AND under oath!! :45


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:48 pm 
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You know I think it's really strange.

I think the defense doesn't have to prove anything they say.

BUT - the Prosecution has to prove everything they say.

WHAT kind of adversary system is that? Doesn't seem in balance... to me, let alone FAIR.

Just because this is the system we have, doesn't mean we can't IMPROVE on it. WHERE ARE the LAWMAKERS now that we need them?
:41


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:06 am 
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George Zimmerman Will Be Acquitted – P.E.R.I.O.D.
The Last Refuge
Posted on June 11, 2012 by sundancecracker

.....more at link
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... e-r-i-o-d/

Quote:
The prosecution narrative of the Trayvon Shooting was drawn to conclusion with the introduction of the Probable Cause Affidavit. There was/is no subsequent investigation, no ongoing inquiry, nor any follow-up on any aspect of the case which would lead them in a divergent direction from the case facts as they chose to know them at that moment.

In short they had investigated, researched, queried, questioned and summarized. The prosecution investigation was/is done. They were/are not going to do any further investigative research to undermine their own case, or change the facts to support a different conclusion that might lead to an acquittal for George Zimmerman.

We were able to independently confirm that law enforcement had no idea about the “Three Stooges”, nor the purchase ”blunts for Trayvon” and potential quid-pro-quo sale of Marijuana to the stooges.

They did not know because there was no need to find out based on their original determinations. They already had their mind made up. However, Team Freedom consisting of George Zimmerman, his family and representatives, are well aware of “Curly” and the 3 stooges.

This is KEY and central to the upcoming acquittal. Why?

Because simply the questioning of the 3 Stooges will reveal (note I want to say *has revealed* but retain prudence) factual possessions that Trayvon carried on his person when he left the 7-11 but WERE NOT on him physically when he encountered George.

This specifically and directly undermines the entire prosecution narrative because it reflects the factual reality of Trayvon going ‘somewhere after he ran’ and then ‘returning’ to confront George.

Within this “going somewhere then return” to the physical location of the encounter the entire case against George Zimmerman falls apart, collapses and disintegrates in front of the tearful eyes of a prosecution about to be covered in egg faced embarrassment.

This case will never make it to trial in any form. The only matter being determined RIGHT NOW is how to acquit George Zimmerman without violence as a consequence of the insufferable rush to judgement and narration selling.

Who is going to take the blame for a false construct and investigation.? and who is going to be allowed to save face?

That expose’ is about to come right up… “cue the fat lady”.
Image




.....more at link
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... e-r-i-o-d/

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:39 am 
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As I was reading that, I remember the lead Detective who was first on that case wanted to arrest Zimmerman that night. It seems, he was overrulled. I thought now what is that all about? :11

Zimmerman's mother worked for the Courts ... his father is a retired Magistrate Judge. Connections maybe? I wouldn't mind that at all if I had a few mug shots taken and got in trouble from time to time ... sounds good to me!! :51

Everything about this case feels strange to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:10 am 
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Alan Dershowitz on Angela Corey - Radio Interview (6-11-12)



Talking with radio host Melissa Ross this morning on WJCT’s First Coast Connect,
Dershowitz invited the state attorney to a debate on the show as soon as the
case is finalized.

The entire hour long radio show... including talk-back
http://www.wjct.org/mp3/weekly/fccm.mp3

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:40 am 
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Part 2 Including some talk-back


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:44 pm 
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George Zimmerman's wife arrested, charged with perjury
By Jeff Weiner, Orlando Sentinel

On Tuesday, she was arrested on a perjury charge and booked into John E. Polk Correctional Facility, the same jail her husband has called home since the deception was revealed earlier this month, leading the judge to revoke his bond.

Shellie Zimmerman was arrested about 3:30 p.m. Tuesday, deputies said. She quickly bonded out of jail.

....more at link
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... s-deputies

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Joni wrote:
Hello! :42
I feel so sorry for Trayvon and his family.
I wonder what happened when Z. said "What are you doing here?" And what did Trayvon say? Did he question him - like "WHO are you?"
I also wonder what was being said or done to him to make him half scream in horror like that? Was he looking down the barrel of a gun, knew he was going to die by the look on Z.'s face or something? What a horrific plea for help. Scary.
Hi from Lilly. :6



No one knows who "screamed". I can assume it was George and who can prove that false? Do you have a source of proof that it was Trayvon? If so, will you post it here?


Jane

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:20 pm 
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Judge scolds George Zimmerman in order revoking bond
Order released explains why Zimmerman was brought back to jail

Published On: Jun 12 2012 02:47:36 PM EDT

SANFORD, Fla. - Judge Kenneth Lester has filed a written order explaining why he revoked the bond for George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

"It is apparent that Shelly Zimmerman testified untruthfully at the bond hearing. The Defendant also testified but did not alert the Court to the misinformation," Lester wrote. "Most importantly though, is the fact that he has now demonstrated that he doesn't properly respect the law or the integrity of the judicial process."

A second bond hearing has been scheduled for June 29 at 9:30 a.m. by Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara.

....more at link
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Judge- ... index.html

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:29 pm 
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You are right rtmember. Hi.

I have no proof. I thought it sounded like a boy, not a man.
And I guess I assumed, that the one without the gun would be the one screaming...

Shellie Zimmerman's mug shot is on Google Images.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:34 pm 
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-----

It's been 'speculated' that no one can know whose voice the scream was. It would also make sense if it were George's as he must have been feeling threatened to have pulled his gun, if he's the one who pulled it....

Yes....the plot thickens. I look forward to seeing this play out.


Jane

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:36 pm 
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The best clue as to who was screaming will be GZ testimony. (If there is a trial and if he testifies).

There may be some sound enhancement.. perhaps a battle of opposing "experts" on that point.

I think in the context of TM on top of GZ.. beating his head.. it makes most sense for it to be GZ... I listened and that is what it sounded like to me.. already picturing TM on top of GZ beating him.

It does all depend on how good a picture the lawyers paint for the jury.. and which scenario they accept.

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