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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:29 pm 
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Charges still the same... Murder2, Manslaughter, use of firearm.

This was a PRELIMINARY hearing to decide if they would go forward with all 3... or perhaps drop the Murder2 would have been the only other option. The burden of proof here was not "beyond reasonable doubt".... the trial SHOULD be quite different?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:24 pm 
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This was a prelim showing evidence from both sides. The Defense didn't get enough to raise reasonable doubt nor did I suspect they would. I still think this is a manslaughter case and that M2 is a reach.

Because you own a gun or support gun rights, which I do, doesn't mean that this was a lawful killing.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:16 pm 
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I don’t own a gun.... not allowed to... not sure if I would??

I do get the need to own a gun..... and generally support US gun rights.

IF I owned a gun... then I might well do EXACTLY what Wafer did. As in go to the door in a scared, anxious state.... armed with gun ready to fire. I think pulling the trigger was an accident. Unless he shows himself to be a violent person (possibly red neck racist) then it makes ZERO sense he would open the door and shoot a drunk teen intentionally... no matter how drunk and aggressive... so assuming he is just a regular Joe... firing the gun was an accident. The burden to prove otherwise falls on the State. They can not know what his intent was (unless he makes a confession that he shot her intentionally)... so even if he had bad intent.. it's hard to prove.... and I don't think he had bad intent.
It was the drunk who initiated all this... it is a no-brainer... he would have slept through the night and not been involved if she had not staggered along.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:31 pm 
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I just wonder how much the dislodged screen will play into the outcome of this trial. To me and quite possibly others it could be considered the beginning of a forced entry. The prosecution will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt it was already in that state prior to that morning.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:32 pm 
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I was impressed with the defence expert on crime reconstruction.... not so impressed with State Medical examiner. Why are they always a bit shifty and vague and seem to not have observed all they should... for a serious/high profile crime. I fear they all may be even more when involved with more common clear cut cases.

I think the position of screen ... now accepted as out of the frame.... is a very important point. It is unlikely to have been in that state before the drunk came aknockin' If the drunk in effect ripped the screen out... then to my mind that is forced entry right there... home invasion.

Even if you think Wafer made unwise choices... surely you are ALLOWED to make unwise choices in your own home? Especially woken at 4:30AM. When you rouse somebody in their home... you get what you find.... unwise choices and all.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:00 pm 
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The question is was the screen already not as it should have been before she got there, and if not, did she put her fist through it or something, or did the blast from the gun dislodge it from the frame?

I hope they took lots and lots of pictures of that screen from lots of different angles before they ever touched it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:09 pm 
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I guess defence may need testimony from witnesses to say they saw the screen in place and OK before the incident, but assuming they can do that (not hard)... what the defence expert argued is that the screen MUST have been out of the frame BEFORE the shot was fired.... that was what he explained with reference to height of the hole in screen, McBride's height, and position of wound. So McBride dislodged it while trying to gain access (Break in)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:06 pm 
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I just had occasion to read Masad Ayoob's book on concealed carry. The subject of accidental vs intentional shootings was discussed. Although it might seem better for Wafer if the discharge was accidental, that is not the case. If he pulled the trigger intentionally, he may argue that that action was justifiable. There is no justifiable negligence. Ayoob cited cases where prosecutors claimed a shooting was accidental, not self-defense as claimed by the defendant. His initial "accidental discharge" story may be difficult to overcome.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Interesting. I see the point.
Sort of a "high stakes" game though... saying he pulled trigger intentionally and was justified would (I guess) open him up to murder2 succeeding? But would also give him an argument to support justifiable (self defence).
I guess "accident" counters Murder2... but perhaps leads to guilty of manslaughter.
This case is shaping up to be very interesting. So long as it is argued and discussed in regards evidence and the law. Of course there is already a bit of BGI (Traybot Worrier) bleeting which will cloud the real issues.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:10 pm 
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Rumpole wrote:
I guess defence may need testimony from witnesses to say they saw the screen in place and OK before the incident, but assuming they can do that (not hard)... what the defence expert argued is that the screen MUST have been out of the frame BEFORE the shot was fired.... that was what he explained with reference to height of the hole in screen, McBride's height, and position of wound. So McBride dislodged it while trying to gain access (Break in)



I would think that the damage from a hand plunging through the screen from the outside would be different from that done by a shotgun discharge from the inside side.

And the "accidental" versus "intentional" question illustrates why you should tell the police that you won't have anything to say until you speak with your attorney.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:16 pm 
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I don't think she ripped the screen (as opposed to shotgun blast) but I do think she managed to wrangle it from the frame, perhaps after he opened the door. Perhaps not, and she knocked (or banged) on the side doors too.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:29 pm 
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I agree, Unitron.... if people did not know already... the GZ case should illustrate the need to keep your mouth shut if you find yourself "helping police with their inquiries". It is natural for "law abiding citizens" to want to genuinely HELP the police... but GZ case shows how often such a "good deed" does not go unpunished. I am not suggesting people be obstructive... but it does pay to get legal advice before saying anything (Hence the Miranda warning).

I agree Berta... looks to me like the defence is suggesting that McBride's "attack" of the screen caused the entire screen panel to drop out of the frame (drop down 8")... before the shot through the mesh caused the hole (and tear)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Absolutely Talk to a Lawyer 1st! you know the old lawyer's adage ,"You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride!" and I am a (mostly ;) ) law-abiding citizen!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:18 am 
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O'MARA LAW BLOG
Image

Complicated Questions Surround the Theodore Wafer Shooting of Renisha McBride
19 Dec

Quote:
Here’s a question, ladies and gentlemen of the jury: if someone is beating on your front door after 2:00 AM, and when you go investigate you find the only thing between you and a stranger is a screen door, which the stranger is pushing their way through -- are you in reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death? I think the answer is “yes,” fear would seem reasonable. Does that fear justify shooting the stranger in self-defense? According to the law it does.

These are some of the details we learned yesterday during a hearing in the Theodore Wafer case -- the shooting of Renisha McBride: McBride was drunk and high. She had been in an accident, and she was injured and disoriented. We saw the screen door and heard testimony that McBride may have been forcing her way through. We heard a short 911 call where Wafer is clearly distressed in the wake of the shooting. We heard the claim that the shotgun went off accidentally, and we heard from a firearms expert that the gun couldn’t go off without pulling the trigger.

If the case goes to trial, we’ll hear and see much more, but the purpose of the hearing yesterday (continuing today) is to determine if there is enough evidence to proceed to trial for second degree murder and manslaughter. Our justifiable use of force laws -- especially the Castle Doctrine -- are designed to recognize that the decision to defend oneself, including the use of deadly force, is a decision made quickly, under duress, and with limited information. From that perspective, based on the information we’ve seen so far, prosecution may not be appropriate.

The accused’s claim that the gun went off accidentally complicates the issue a bit -- it opens the door for the manslaughter charge to stick. Self-defense is an AFFIRMATIVE defense, and if the defendant was not acting affirmatively, it weakens the argument. While the claim of an accident eliminates the depraved mind qualifier in a second degree murder charge, killing someone accidentally is, almost by definition, manslaughter. If the case moves forward, it may rest on this point. Nonetheless, if the case does go to trial, I think the prosecutors will have an uphill battle in trying to convince a jury Theodore Wafer didn’t have a right to defend himself when a stranger was coming through his front door in the middle of the night.
[...]


...more at link
http://omaralawblog.com/index.php/8-blo ... ha-mcbride

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:24 am 
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Wow.... a great Blog

It agrees with the point Libtardh8r posted (ex Masad Ayoob's book on concealed carry)

I don't remember MOM being quite so erudite in laying out his own case for GZ... I guess he was keeping some arrows in his quiver hidden?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:55 am 
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Yes great blog up thread.

It will be interesting to see if there is any one who can testify about the screen door's condition previous to this shooting. And maybe he called it an accident as if he didn't plan to shoot but to just scare but then his plan got accidentally changed. In this day and age people use words loosely and don't necessarily use them according to the operational definition. Hey I'm trying here.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:28 am 
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IIRC I think part of the problem I had with those "damn doors" was that the MSM was giving conflicting reports about said doors.

I also wonder what happened to the initial 911 call about the accident. Did the police wonder/care about the missing driver?

Wafer alone and asleep in his own home in the early morning hours awakes to someone banging on his doors (damn doors!) not just the front door but the two side doors too. He has no prior knowledge of who is outside and they're inebriated /injured. Or if there is more than one. She is perhaps screaming to get in and making a lot of noise, he arms himself, can't see much through the peephole, cracks open the door (notice gunshot rip on side) she at that moment rips the screen from the frame, he shoots. She falls, he's in shock (never shot anyone). Therefore the "accidental" comment misspoke in the moment due to stress/shock.

It is terrible for her to have been killed but sometimes all the wrong things converge into a tragic (and prolly avoidable by everyone involved, if only etc) accident.

IMO


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Yes I now see the point of a SD (self defence) defence. Like most (all cases) the jury selection will be critical (do we get 12 or 6 jurors here?)... and I think the defence need to be up describing vividly what Wafer heard/saw/felt... the time of night... it was dark etc. If they can lay out a vivid scenario and get the jury to empathise... then SD has a good chance IMO.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Homeowner who shot Renisha McBride will go on trial for murder
Fri December 20, 2013
By Sarah Cwiek

The Dearborn Heights homeowner who shot an unarmed teenager on his front porch has been bound over for trial.

Theodore Wafer will face trial for second-degree murder, manslaughter, and a felony firearms charge in 19-year-old Renisha McBride’s death.

Dearborn Heights judge David Turfe ruled Thursday the case can proceed after nearly two days of expert and witness testimony.

...more at link
http://michiganradio.org/post/homeowner ... ial-murder

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Things just don't add up for me in the Ted Wafer case.

From day one of the hearing. It doesn't make sense that Mr Wafer aimed the gun at her and fired.

http://live.freep.com/Event/Live_blog_P ... se?Page=11

Quote:
If the position of the person holding the weapon firing as it is in the door frame, it would have to have been fired downward to hit a person on the porch who is 6 inches lower.

Balash said he is 5-foot-11 and would have to shoot downward given the location of the hole in the screen.

The assistant medical examiner testified earlier that McBride was shot straight on.

Balash has explained different scenarios. He said that the damage on the screen doesn't indicate a downward shot. He said there isn't a lot of damage to the screen. He said he would expect to see ripping and a pattern if the shot were fired downward.


It didn't stop the assistant prosecutor from making an ignorant statement, I was just waiting for the prosecutor to repeat loudly several time "Azzholes and Fscking Punks"

http://live.freep.com/Event/Live_blog_D ... ase?Page=0

Quote:
Assistant prosecutor: The facts establiished is that Wafer took a shotgun out of a case, it was loaded, racked, the safety was taken off, he carried gun to the front door, "he shoved that shotgun in her face and he pulled the trigger," shooting through a locked screen door.


How do you put a gun in someone's face when they're on the other side of a screen door? Also how would the pellet travel straight from front to back when Mr Wafer was 7" taller and Ms Mcbride was standing on a porch that 6" lower than floor level in the house?


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