It is currently Mon May 19, 2025 10:19 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1019 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 51  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:11 pm
Posts: 1376
Location: Arizona
Wouldn't this be up to the jury whose voice it is screaming? The father of TM said it wasn't TM. The mother says it was. The father of GZ says it was him. There is a bunch of malarkey as to why Tracy said it wasn't TM. There is a witness who said he heard the one on the bottom screaming.

Common sense tells you TM had no reason to be screaming since he was on top beating GZ's head into the concrete.

I don't see the big deal in this.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:11 pm
Posts: 1376
Location: Arizona
chipbennett wrote:

That, and the comparison was made against Zimmerman's normal, non-stressed voice. Using brand-new, un-vetted, just-released-to-market voice-analysis software - developed, marketed, and sold by the "expert" himself.


I thought the police took samples of GZ screaming over the police radio.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 1124
murderbythebook wrote:
Wouldn't this be up to the jury whose voice it is screaming? The father of TM said it wasn't TM. The mother says it was. The father of GZ says it was him. There is a bunch of malarkey as to why Tracy said it wasn't TM. There is a witness who said he heard the one on the bottom screaming.

Common sense tells you TM had no reason to be screaming since he was on top beating GZ's head into the concrete.

I don't see the big deal in this.


W6 recanted about hearing Zimmerman himself scream. He said something to the effect that he couldn't see who was doing the yelling but that common sense told him it was the guy on the bottom getting struck.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:25 pm
Posts: 612
Location: Rosenberg, Texas
Rumpole wrote:
Talking off the top of my head, and from memory....

Didn't the shonky analysis in effect claim the voice did not match the sample of GZ they used... that is all? They have no sample of TM. They are saying it's not GZ therefore it is TM?

THAT is about as shonky as "scientific" analysis gets. :slap


Owen compared altered audio of the screams to GZ's NEN call yet still got a 48% match. Based on what the FBI stated I would saying that's a substantial match considering what was tested.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... -certainty

Quote:
"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match.


We know that the FBI clearly stated in their report (page 146 -148 of 183 in the 1st evidence dump) :

Quote:
Voice comparison is not possible for the designated voices due to extreme stress and unsuitable voice quality


and

Quote:
Critical listening and digital signal analyses further revealed that the screaming voice of the 911 call is of insufficient voice quality and duration to conduct a meaningful voice comparison with any other voice samples due to the screaming voice being: (1) produced under an extreme emotional state, (2) limited in the number of words and phrases uttered, (3) superimposed by other voices most of the time, and (4) distant, reverberant, and very low signal.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:25 pm
Posts: 612
Location: Rosenberg, Texas
DebFrmHell wrote:
W6 recanted about hearing Zimmerman himself scream. He said something to the effect that he couldn't see who was doing the yelling but that common sense told him it was the guy on the bottom getting struck.


I do think that W6 also stated he felt it was GZ as the voice wasn't echoing of the walls across the way. GZ was facing towards W6 and TM was facing away from W6 towards the apartments/townhouses across the way.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:34 am
Posts: 892
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA
chipbennett wrote:

That, and the comparison was made against Zimmerman's normal, non-stressed voice. Using brand-new, un-vetted, just-released-to-market voice-analysis software - developed, marketed, and sold by the "expert" himself.

murderbythebook wrote:
I thought the police took samples of GZ screaming over the police radio.


Indeed, they did.

But the wanna-be "expert" compared Zimmerman's voice from the recorded NEN call with the screams on the recorded 911 call.

To be fair: he used the only voice data that was publicly available at the time. That said, he completely failed to indicate that the voice samples were incompatible, and not suitable for definitive analysis.

_________________
"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:34 am
Posts: 892
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA
murderbythebook wrote:
Wouldn't this be up to the jury whose voice it is screaming? The father of TM said it wasn't TM. The mother says it was. The father of GZ says it was him. There is a bunch of malarkey as to why Tracy said it wasn't TM. There is a witness who said he heard the one on the bottom screaming.

Common sense tells you TM had no reason to be screaming since he was on top beating GZ's head into the concrete.

I don't see the big deal in this.
DebFrmHell wrote:

W6 recanted about hearing Zimmerman himself scream. He said something to the effect that he couldn't see who was doing the yelling but that common sense told him it was the guy on the bottom getting struck.


I see this asserted often; it's simply not true.

The only thing Witness 6 recanted is that he could see Zimmerman screaming. BDLR followed up the FDLE interview questions with a direct question regarding whether Witness 6 could see Zimmerman screaming. Witness 6 indicated that, due to the distance and darkness, he could not see actual lips moving, but still believed, based on the circumstances, and the clarity/lack of echo of the screams, that the person on bottom (Zimmerman) was screaming.

_________________
"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 1124
That was exactly my point, Chip.
Quote:
that he couldn't see who was doing the yelling


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:24 pm
Posts: 87
Let me say first, that I'm not a screamer. If someone said ... I will give you $1M to scream right now ... I can't do it. I never could scream like if I was an actor and told to scream (like a woman in horror movie). I can hollar ... but not scream. Yet, many years ago when something happened (dogs fighting) I screamed. I made a sound I had never made in my life. If I was to try to duplicate it I couldn't ... not then ... not now. I think we are all capable of making sounds that we are not aware we can make under certain conditions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:11 pm
Posts: 1376
Location: Arizona
DebFrmHell wrote:

W6 recanted about hearing Zimmerman himself scream. He said something to the effect that he couldn't see who was doing the yelling but that common sense told him it was the guy on the bottom getting struck.


Yes, he said he couldn't see GZ's mouth to know if it was him for sure. This was at the time the news and everyone else was raising hell and I believe it could have scared him. I would like to see his deposition regarding this. I still think he is a good witness for the defense.


Last edited by murderbythebook on Tue May 07, 2013 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:11 pm
Posts: 1376
Location: Arizona
Why would TM be wailing if he was beating Zimmerman up? He wouldn't have wanted attention drawn to his brutality. That's why he told GZ to shut the '"F" up and covered his mouth and nose. I think common sense will win out on this with the jury.

That and Tracy changing his story to match his wife's.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 585
Quote:
It's not clear why prosecutors have subpoenaed the head of records at the jail where Zimmerman was locked up for several weeks


For authentication of jail records to try and get them into evidence. Maybe recordings of Z's phone calls from jail?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:41 pm
Posts: 270
mung wrote:
You mean "I listened to it and is sounds like a kid" isn't scientific?


Well, someone on another site referred to it as "...(a) methodology (which) has been used for many years..."

(parenthetical inserts are mine for clarity's sake)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:01 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Welcome to RT Unitron :28

The cries do sound somewhat "childlike".... which suggests it is GZ's voice (soft and high pitched).... rather than TM's :)

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:48 am
Posts: 64
John_Galt wrote:
For authentication of jail records to try and get them into evidence. Maybe recordings of Z's phone calls from jail?


This is where I think the defense really needs to be on the ball. Nothing about the bond, hiding money, or the passport should be admissible in the trial, because it's irrelevant; but BDLR might try to sneak it in under, perhaps, some sort of consciousness-of-guilt theory based on Judge Lester's ramblings about GZ planning to escape.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 585
Case Law - Voice Identification Experts

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xm ... -1986-2006


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:48 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Thanks... but I got lost in the middle :)

What stood out was:

Quote:
In addition to the fact that the state of the law concerning expert voice identification was ambiguous, the expert testimony presented at the evidentiary hearing demonstrates that spectrographic analysis is—and was at the time of Drones's trial—of questionable scientific validity. Most notably, at the hearing, Koenig testified that there is no proven theoretical basis for the basic underlying premise that one person's voice is truly unique and therefore identifiable. He further stated that this has resulted in a precipitous drop in the number of expert practitioners over the past few decades, from fifty to sixty practitioners in the 1970's to roughly a dozen experts at the time of Drones's trial. While Cain testified that expert voice identification testimony has been used extensively in state and federal courts over the past thirty years, he also testified that he did not know if spectrographic evidence was widely accepted by the relevant scientific community. He also acknowledged that numerous factors—including a defendant's ability to disguise his own voice—could affect the reliability of expert analysis.

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:48 am
Posts: 64
US v. Angleton, 269 F. Supp. 2d 892 - Dist. Court, SD Texas 2003 is only a trial court decision, but has an extensive discussion of the reliability of expert voice identification. The version I linked to also contains the amusing error: "The government presented Dr. Hirotaka Nakasone as a witness on the use and relability of the spectrographic methods of mice identification." I've always wished I could relably identify mice.

(For those who don't know, in the federal court system, the trial courts are called district courts, and the appellate courts are called circuit courts -- the opposite of Florida's court system.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:22 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
:)
Maybe research has been done on "mice identification" :)
Who are we to say they all sound the same?... especially to University professors.

Now.... what is needed in this case, clearly is some reference related to "Cockatoo" recognition.... as identified by JQ experts such as "Ludwig"

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:27 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
MJW wrote:
US v. Angleton, 269 F. Supp. 2d 892 - Dist. Court, SD Texas 2003 is only a trial court decision, but has an extensive discussion of the reliability of expert voice identification. The version I linked to also contains the amusing error: "The government presented Dr. Hirotaka Nakasone as a witness on the use and relability of the spectrographic methods of mice identification." I've always wished I could relably identify mice.

(For those who don't know, in the federal court system, the trial courts are called district courts, and the appellate courts are called circuit courts -- the opposite of Florida's court system.)


It's always handy tho find a "Conclusions" passage at the end of a outline like that :)

Quote:
III. Conclusion
The testimony and evidence show that voice identification techniques using the aural spectrographic method are not widely accepted by the scientific community. The evidence and testimony show that there is great dispute among researchers and the few practitioners in the field over the accuracy and reliability of voice spectrographic analysis to determine the identity of recorded speakers. The evidence also shows that error rates for voice spectrographic techniques are unknown and vary widely depending on the conditions under which the analysis is made. The post-Daubert case law casts doubt on the reliability and admissibility of voice spectrograph analysis. The protocol Cain followed did not protect against several sources of error, further reducing the reliability of the voice spectrographic analysis conducted in this case. This court GRANTS the government's motion to exclude the testimony of Stephen Cain.

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1019 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 51  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group