It is currently Tue May 20, 2025 11:29 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1091 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27 ... 55  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:33 pm
Posts: 575
Rumpole wrote:
I agree GZ was silly.. but I can imagine the mental turmoil I would be in if I was in his position.

It seems to have been largely overlooked that the money (and the passport) were surrendered anyway within days... and GZ certainly made no moves to skip town :12
O'Mara had the passport... Judge seems to have forgotten that... and GZ paid off credit cards etc... NOT what a person planning to abscond does.

But it is such a minor matter.... even as far as bond goes.. and irrelevant to the case itself.

Lying in a court of law, even by omission, is a really dumb thing to do (I really don't think George is the smartest crayon in the pack), but I can understand it. If I was thrown in jail with 3/4 of the citizens of the world hating me enough to want to kill me, and the government, both state and federal, using all their ammunition against me, well, then, I might even suspend my good judgment and try to sock away all the resources I could, knowing I would probably need them all.I understand it, but I don't condone it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:25 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
GZ was probably told to shut up in court... probably in a bit of a daze.. I would be.

I KNOW (we all know) SZ was trying to not reveal the PP money.. but did she LIE strictly speaking? That has yet to be argued and proven.

Lester conceded GZ could not jump up and object in court... suggested GZ should have "tugged at his lawyers sleeve"... really? Did George know that? As O'Mara described it... his sin comes down to (at most) ... "Failure to tug his lawyer's sleeve"

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:17 pm
Posts: 2469
M. M. and seeing_eye :28

You are correct!! I did forget about the facial inujuries... we are always seeing the head photos.

And yes too... head injuries can be very serious!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:37 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
NOTE

My thinking is that we need this GENERAL discussion thread to discuss all aspects of the case.

There is no need, at this stage, for lots of separate threads on specific aspects of the case, evidence items etc

But... if people want to single out some aspect in a separate thread... to have it available for reference....feel free to do so.

But not excluding any discussion here in the general discussion

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:42 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
From comments at The Last Refuge.....
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... ent-158136

Walther PPK says:
July 8, 2012 at 7:40 pm

Quote:
The non-trivial issue with theories that GZ was the criminal aggressor is that is conjecture and speculation for which no evidence exists to support such theory. It requires more than just theory to constitute probable cause and it takes way more than probable cause to honestly secure a criminal conviction based upon facts and evidence which are not just conjecture, speculation, and theory. You can’t just propose some “alternative plausible scenario” and call it probable cause, and that is what has been done with the criminal allegations against GZ. The prosecution case is a theory and it isn’t even a good theory because it doesn’t square with the facts and evidence.
It would be hard to call it an SYG case since it would be difficult to SYG while flat on your back getting your brains beat out by an attacker. The only aspect of SYG that would seem pertinent is the associated immunity statute for self defense, and the SYG issue is basically a red herring that is brought in as an attempeted justification for the battery of GZ by TM who is speculated and theorized to have been standing HIS ground against GZ, in response to some again theoretical aggression by GZ. The problem is there is no evidence to support that theory so you can have a theory all day with no evidence and it has no legal weight or meaning, it is conjecture and speculation. On the other hand there is evidence to support a self defense claim by GZ in this situation where other scenarios which may be plausible have no supporting evidence at all. The trayvon apologists don’t seem to understand that there is a weight of evidence and witnesses which supports the account of GZ and even the deposition of DeeDee supports the account of GZ which is ironic if DeeDee is somehow the “star witness” for the prosecution. So the prosecution has nothing, a big fat zero. That is exactly why there never should have been an arrest, much less a trial. No man should be tried on the basis of other people’s unsubstantiated theories supported by no evidence whatever, when all the evidence shows self-defense is what occurred.

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:33 pm
Posts: 575
Rumpole wrote:
From comments at The Last Refuge.....
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... ent-158136

Walther PPK says:
July 8, 2012 at 7:40 pm

The non-trivial issue with theories that GZ was the criminal aggressor is that is conjecture and speculation for which no evidence exists to support such theory. It requires more than just theory to constitute probable cause and it takes way more than probable cause to honestly secure a criminal conviction based upon facts and evidence which are not just conjecture, speculation, and theory. You can’t just propose some “alternative plausible scenario” and call it probable cause, and that is what has been done with the criminal allegations against GZ. The prosecution case is a theory and it isn’t even a good theory because it doesn’t square with the facts and evidence.
It would be hard to call it an SYG case since it would be difficult to SYG while flat on your back getting your brains beat out by an attacker. The only aspect of SYG that would seem pertinent is the associated immunity statute for self defense, and the SYG issue is basically a red herring that is brought in as an attempeted justification for the battery of GZ by TM who is speculated and theorized to have been standing HIS ground against GZ, in response to some again theoretical aggression by GZ. The problem is there is no evidence to support that theory so you can have a theory all day with no evidence and it has no legal weight or meaning, it is conjecture and speculation. On the other hand there is evidence to support a self defense claim by GZ in this situation where other scenarios which may be plausible have no supporting evidence at all. The trayvon apologists don’t seem to understand that there is a weight of evidence and witnesses which supports the account of GZ and even the deposition of DeeDee supports the account of GZ which is ironic if DeeDee is somehow the “star witness” for the prosecution. So the prosecution has nothing, a big fat zero. That is exactly why there never should have been an arrest, much less a trial. No man should be tried on the basis of other people’s unsubstantiated theories supported by no evidence whatever, when all the evidence shows self-defense is what occurred.

That is exactly the way I see this whole bru-ha-ha!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:59 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
seeing_eye wrote:
That is exactly the way I see this whole bru-ha-ha!


I liked it, and agree with it.
Happy to quote such a well written outline

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:54 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Memo to the Zimmerman Judge
By Arnold S. Trebach on 7.9.12 @ 6:08AM

Judge Lester should recuse himself in the Zimmerman-Martin case.

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/07/0 ... -judge-fr/

Quote:
Arnold S. Trebach was a protester in the original civil rights movement during the Fifties, and also was Chief, Administration of Justice Section, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, 1960-63. Currently, he is professor emeritus, American University and a member of the Maryland state Advisory Committee to that commission. This essay has no relation to his work on that committee.


Quote:
Honorable Kenneth R. Lester, Jr.
Eighteenth Judicial Circuit Court
Seminole County, Florida

Dear Judge Lester:

I just finished reading the text of the "Order Setting Bail" regarding George Zimmerman, wherein you raised the bail to one million dollars. With great respect, I am moved to tell you that it was a distressing experience to this old retired lawyer because the order was so far removed from the actual facts of the case.

In that order you portrayed the defendant, George Zimmerman, as a clever, knowledgeable person who has "tried to manipulate the system when he has been presented the opportunity to do so." You described him as a fellow who lied to everyone, including his own counsel, about the state of his finances and accordingly was not to be believed on any matter. You waxed eloquent on the deception played upon you when Shellie Zimmerman, the defendant's wife, stated in court that she was not aware of any funds the couple had.

Your honor, you then went on to state: "While not exactly the same, this Court finds that deceiving the Court at a bond hearing is akin to violating a bond condition." Then, sir, you came perilously close to equating that deception to the act of committing a new offense while out on bond.

You went on to consider the defendant's past and present conduct and had to conclude that there was no record of previous convictions "or failure to appear at court proceedings." You reviewed the defense claims that Zimmerman's silence in the presence of his wife's false testimony in court was occasioned by his fear and confusion. You rejected those arguments and then jumped to this extraordinary conclusion: "Although there is no record of flight to avoid prosecution, this court finds that circumstances indicate that the Defendant was preparing to flee to avoid prosecution."

On the core issue of the weight of the evidence supporting the charge of second degree murder, you concluded that the State's case was "strong" and to support that finding you mentioned the infamous probable cause affidavit submitted by special prosecutor Angela Corey. In that affidavit and in testimony of one of her investigators, it appeared that "the Defendants actions were imminently dangerous to another and that he acted with a depraved mind regardless of human life." You agreed with those damning statements.

In my view, you are wrong on each of these important points, save one. The Zimmermans did mislead you on their finances and my hope is that you see that for what it is, a small part of the overall picture. Recall that George and Shellie have been the victims of what amounts to a national lynch mob, led in part by the president and the attorney general. They have received a flood of death threats from the Black Panthers and many others. They have been forced to leave their home in Sanford. So have other family members. George has had to leave his job and his college. They have been forced into hiding and he must now stay in a safe house. Think of how you would feel if you received constant death threats and had to leave everything with which you were familiar. In that situation, it is quite understandable that you would become secretive and be very cautious when asked about your finances in a court hearing.

These are terrified young people and you are treating them as clever pariahs and devious criminals. You are supposed to assure their dignity and their safety. You have sought to do neither. Just the opposite. For shame.

It is as if you had graduated from the Al Sharpton School of Law.

My review of all of the available evidence and information leads me to believe, as have other legal analysts, that the state's case is fatally weak. That has led me to conclude that George Zimmerman is innocent, which is an extraordinary public statement for an old lawyer and legal scholar to make -- since the case has not yet been tried. I am not saying merely that there is insufficient evidence for the state to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. I am saying innocent. Period.

Here are some of the facts that led to my conclusion. Zimmerman's claim of self defense is supported by almost every piece of information that has come to light. The first police officer on the scene arrived within minutes of the tragic shooting. He observed that Zimmerman was bloody and looked beaten. The second police officer arrived moments later and reported that Zimmerman told him that he had been screaming for help but that no one would help him. The fire department emergency medical technician told of how he had treated Zimmerman's head and face wounds. A subsequent doctor's report confirmed his injuries and stated that he suffered from a broken nose.

Such reports made within a short time of the incident, in my experience, are the most persuasive. There is no time to make up stories in such hurried circumstances. All of them support Zimmerman's claim of self defense. These statements made in the heat of the moment, or near to it, are much more compelling than the affidavit filed by Angela Corey months later, an affidavit you cited with approval.

None of the early statements by officials mentioned any hint of racial bias in any comment made by the defendant.

Trayvon Martin was killed with one shot to the chest fired at close range. This was consistent with Zimmerman's description of the encounter. Had Zimmerman been intent on stalking and killing the young man, he could have taken out his pistol and fired several shots from a distance, perhaps hitting him in the back.

On the evening of the sad event, George Zimmerman agreed to voluntarily take a CVSA Truth Verification test in the Sanford police station. This is a form of lie detector test used by many police departments. While not ordinarily admissible in a formal court trial, as you know, it does help guide police and prosecution officials in determining whether or not to proceed with an arrest and prosecution in the early stages of a case. The confidential report gives the examiner four choices to describe how the subject fared. The examiner checked the fourth and highest level: "The examinee has told substantially the complete truth in regards to this examination." Such evidence quite probably figured in the decision by the police chief and the then-prosecutor to drop the case, at least initially.

It is of major significance that, in the early stages, the only official to question Zimmerman's racial tolerance and also his innocence was lead detective Christopher Serino. Within a few days he practically accused Zimmerman of being a bigot and also urged that he be charged with manslaughter. Recently, Serino was reduced to a patrolman on the night shift. The change was labeled as voluntary but there is some new information that his role in the case, on numerous fronts, has been quietly discredited.

Your honor, I am baffled to try to understand your conclusion that Zimmerman was preparing to flee the jurisdiction. That is simply bizarre. Adam Vincent, a Seminole County probation officer, testified, "We never had any problems from Mr. Zimmerman while he was under our supervision…. For all intents and purposes he was a model client."

I have been forced to conclude that like Christopher Serino and Angela Corey, you have made it obvious that in your mind George Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder. It would help restore my faith in the legal profession, which faith is a cornerstone of my very being, if you recused yourself from the case -- and moreover issued an apology to all concerned for the misleading contents of the bail order.

With sadness and deep concern,

Arnold S. Trebach

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:04 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
The second round of discovery is ready for release. It will be available Thursday, July 12th at 10 a.m. Those who requested immediate access to the records on the FTP site need to make a payment by 10 a.m. on Thursday. If you miss the deadline, your access will be granted when the payment is received. The fee for the processing/redaction of the second round of discovery material is: $27.50.

Lisa A. DiFranza
Assistant State Attorney
Public Records Division

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:04 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
06-15-12 Redacted Second Discovery

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Rel ... covery.pdf


Discovery provided to defence last month... will be released to the public Thursday 10th July

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:16 pm
Posts: 1158
Wow thanks for sharing that memo, Rumpole.

The Al Sharpton School of Law. . .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:17 pm
Posts: 2469
I want to learn more about "Stand your ground" law.

Some were saying on TV (way beyond the Z. case), it is like one can kill, then claim Self Defense.
Simple - easy. I heard some talk about repealing it...

I remember "No Fault Divorce" in PA. Supposed to be great! Avoid all kinds of expensive litigation. They gave the males some perks, the women some perks. One for the men that didn't work out well at all (for them), was that alimony continues till the woman remarries - then it's ended. Women never remarried They got around it by just living together. I am not sure what ever became of that law. I don't think they thought - it was working ... the BIG PERK for men became a big joke!

TTL :23 I miss this place ... but busy here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:53 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Discussion of Witness #11

Published on Jul 10, 2012 by pokerfacetodd

This witness makes it clear George is the good guy, and that George was bloodied and battered according to the picture the police took. She supports George's version of the movement of the fight.



What she says to support George?

1) The fight took place where George said.

2) George is a nice, quiet guy. Not someone who would chase and kill anyone.

3) She heard from John, the guy she heard tell Trayvon to stop attacking George, say what he saw. It's hearsay and inadmissible, but it tells us what John was saying minutes after the event.


_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:42 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
George Zimmerman evidence, including FBI interviews, to be released Thursday
2:10 p.m. EST, July 11, 2012
By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

Special Prosecutor Angela Corey on Thursday releases another round of evidence in her second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman, including a first look at what FBI agents have turned up in their civil rights investigation.

Nearly a dozen FBI agents interviewed several Sanford police officers, including the case's lead investigator, Chris Serino. They also talked to Zimmerman's former girlfriend, who accused him in court paperwork of being violent; neighbor Frank Taffee; several unidentified civilian witnesses and several gun shop employees, including those who worked at the store where Zimmerman bought the gun he used to shoot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
<SNIP>
Corey's office released this new batch of evidence — its second — to defense attorneyMark O'Maralast month and a list of what it includes to everyone else.

There are no obvious blockbusters, but there are several things that could be revealing. Among them are:

•Email from Zimmerman and Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee.

•Cell phone records from Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin.

•The testimony of 21 new unidentified "civilian" witnesses – those not working for a government agency.

•What Central Florida gun shop owners had to say about Zimmerman's comments and behavior while buying the gun that killed Trayvon, taking target practice and getting training for his concealed weapons permit.

•What Zimmerman told police dispatchers and officers the six times he called Sanford and Seminole County authorities, presumably reporting problems as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, in the six months before Trayvon's shooting.

•The account of a private investigator hired by the Martin family.

•Crime scene photos, diagrams and dispatch records.

•Seminole County jail records.

•-What state alcohol agents have to say about Zimmerman. The agency arrested him in 2005 for resisting arrest without violence during a raid at a bar near the University of Central Florida.

....more at link
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... gela-corey

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:48 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
It may turn out to be nothing much.... but when these documents were first released by the Prosecution as Discovery to Defence...

I was intrigued to know WHAT would bs shown by bank security cameras on the day of the shooting?

Tomorrow all should be revealed.

From Discovery page 3:
Image



I have added the bank mentioned to the interactive Google Map of the area... providing more security cam footage

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=21 ... 35,0.01929

M & I Bank
1381 Rinehart Road
Sanford, FL 32771

Screen Shot (Not interactive)
Image

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:02 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Of Course the BIG question is.... how does the Club House kitteh fit into all of this? :12

Image

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:39 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Prosecutor releases new Zimmerman evidence
By Rene Stutzman and Jeff Weiner, Orlando Sentinel
10:29 a.m. EST, July 12, 2012
(Story Being Updated)

Special Prosecutor Angela Corey has just released another round of evidence in her second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman, including a first look at what FBI agents have turned up in their civil rights investigation.

There are no expected blockbusters.

Some of the evidence are interviews of Sanford police officers involved in the case by Corey's investigators.

That includes Officer Tim Smith, the first officer on the scene.

He told an investigator that Zimmerman continued to bleed from the nose at police headquarters, even after he was cleaned up by paramedics..

Zimmerman's back also was wet, and his clothes had grass on them, Smith said.

"I was yelling for help but no one would help me," Smith quoted Zimmerman as saying.

Zimmerman also carried his concealed weapons permit in his wallet, Smith said.

....more at link (Being updated)
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... -zimmerman

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:40 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Nobody is even mentioning the Bank Surveillance video?

EDIT: It has been mentioned at least... it's relevance still unclear

Weiner's tweeting nothing on the bank video.


Jeff Weiner@JeffWeinerOS

@coreybking Doesn't seem to show anything related to the shooting. Not what investigators thought it would show.

Jeff Weiner@JeffWeinerOS

@ladyinthehood We haven't uploaded that video yet. Doesn't seem to show anything related to the shooting. Not why they pulled it.

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:56 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Second Discovery Documents

PDF (284 Pages)
http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/- ... uments.pdf

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:30 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Zimmerman discovery photo gallery
Published On: Jul 12 2012 11:19:13 AM EDT

Slide Show - aerial photography (84 Photos)
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/-/1637 ... index.html

Image

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1091 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27 ... 55  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group