It is currently Sun May 18, 2025 4:51 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1157 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 58  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:30 pm
Posts: 55
Rumpole wrote:
Johannes Vermeulen State door expert was quite clear that the bat strikes came after the shots.

It is pure speculation and a silly logical distortion to try and TWIST that clear evidence into "What if some bat strikes were before and some after" The evidence is that the bat strikes were after the gunshots. It is OP's version and it is the State expert testimony.

Nel was trapped by Roux into stating in open court categorically that the State Version is that gunshots were "second bangs" (just after 3:17)... I think they could have dismissed the charges at that point. It is impossible for the gunshots to have been at that time with cricket bat and all the rest after that before 3:19 phone call.
Nel has avoided explaining first bangs... or explaining the fact that NOBODY heard the "bat on door" after the 3:17 shots.


Somebody or other recently posted that they had a revelation that the reason Nel was not addressing the first sounds is that they are irrelevant. That's right. They just don't matter. Hope that wasn't a leap up and bonk your head type revelation. 'Cause it certainly wouldn't be worth the goose egg.

_________________
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. ~Bruce Cockburn
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 6:19 pm
Posts: 2914
Ah, Junebug, don't worry about testimony and facts just listen to the "special" minds that have it all figured out. It makes decision making much simpler.

_________________
If your mind is agitated you will find agitation everywhere. Where else will you find peace if not within you? __ Papaji


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:30 pm
Posts: 55
I think we all make decisions about what is key and what is extraneous or not as important to any given narrative. I for example can't make myself care that much about the positions of the fans and the duvet in the Pistorius case. And I acknowledge that that might be an error and bit of cognitive dissonance. But how do you dismiss the first set of sounds as irrelevant? I just...huh.

_________________
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. ~Bruce Cockburn
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:24 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
JuneBug67 wrote:
Somebody or other recently posted that they had a revelation that the reason Nel was not addressing the first sounds is that they are irrelevant. That's right. They just don't matter. Hope that wasn't a leap up and bonk your head type revelation. 'Cause it certainly wouldn't be worth the goose egg.


WOW!!

They are so "relevant" the transcript of that testimony should be highlighted and marked as "this is relevant stuff" :)

It is a HUGELY relevant point that the best ear witness (Stipps) heard TWO sets of bangs that he was sure were gunshots.

He was of course totally WRONG about one of the sets of bangs.. no matter what "version" you accept.

So conclusive proof that honest, truthful witnesses can give evidence (in good faith)... and evidence of sounds in particular, and be WRONG in their perception.

That makes "bat on door" as a source of one set of bangs very likely... but also it adds weight to the Defence contention that witnesses are wrong in their interpretation of sounds... both the "gunshots" and the screams.

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:30 pm
Posts: 55
It is probably THE pillar of my own reasoning on this case, and why I am still leaning to Oscar's innocence. I called it a true Occam's Razor in a post on another forum. Two sets of sounds, two events generating sounds, evidence that one came after the other. That alone should give anybody considering this case at least pause. But people roll right over it with all manner of complicated explanations, until they just collapse in a pile of "it's irrelevant!".

It was not at all intuitive that the two sounds would so closely resemble each other. Fascinating really. And while I wondered for a bit if it was some distortion that came from the process of recording, that concern evaporated when it was testified that the owner or manager of the gun range came over concerned that they were shooting out of bounds when it was actually the bat test that was going on. And yes, you're absolutely right - this is exactly how honest witnesses make such crucial mistakes. The reasonable assumption is gunshots, and a woman screaming. But that all comes from expectations and experience that doesn't prepare people to properly interpret unexpected or unusual events. And they are left absolutely POSITIVE about their beliefs that get reinforced by any number of mechanisms.

_________________
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. ~Bruce Cockburn
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:57 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
AH HA! I see your problem!!!

I have posted EXACTLY the same... made a reference to "Occam's Razor" even.. here and at other forums.

Fact is there is some sort of "electromagnetic field" around some True Gossip Forums.. such that "Occam's Razor" works in reverse!! :wall

I even recall one dope responding with a very COMPLEX version of what "Occam's Razor" was..... you can't make this stuff up :lol



Twilight zone - Golden earring


_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 6:19 pm
Posts: 2914
JuneBug67 wrote:
I think we all make decisions about what is key and what is extraneous or not as important to any given narrative. I for example can't make myself care that much about the positions of the fans and the duvet in the Pistorius case. And I acknowledge that that might be an error and bit of cognitive dissonance. But how do you dismiss the first set of sounds as irrelevant? I just...huh.





I think it is a simple case of twisting facts to fit a theory.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”


Sir Doyle

_________________
If your mind is agitated you will find agitation everywhere. Where else will you find peace if not within you? __ Papaji


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 6:19 pm
Posts: 2914
Interesting blog, written by a person with a disability, not very in depth but a view from someone who was raised "expecting to adapt to the world" as if she had no disability.


Oscar Pistorius: Blade Runner, Trauma Survivor, “Other”


http://blogs.psychcentral.com/organizat ... vor-other/

_________________
If your mind is agitated you will find agitation everywhere. Where else will you find peace if not within you? __ Papaji


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:30 pm
Posts: 55
Very good read Carmelita...thanks. I've always had empathy for what Oscar may have been perceiving and feeling that night but these kind of contributions really raise it to another level of understanding. Recently some spokesperson from a group representing disability issues or something said effectively that Oscar couldn't have it both ways. That he couldn't be a both a champion because of his disability and vulnerable because of it. I'm heavily paraphrasing, but I found the thought terribly misguided and even offensive. And it is distasteful to be willing to score political or special interest points off what is tragedy all around.

_________________
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight. ~Bruce Cockburn
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 6:19 pm
Posts: 2914
I agree that it is a terribly misguided thought and IMO particularly ignorant. The human mind is far too complex to fit anyone into a box of our own design. It is the same drive and refusal to look at himself as disabled that would make a man like Oscar particulaly single minded in his focus if he heard a noise in the dark and in his own mind was certain that the noise could not be Reeva.

In fact the him being vulnerable and a champion because of his disability parallel quite well if it is thought about logically.

_________________
If your mind is agitated you will find agitation everywhere. Where else will you find peace if not within you? __ Papaji


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:40 am
Posts: 142
The fact that the hang-Oscar militia has to accept that he was on his stumps in the bathroom when he killed Reeva drives them into an absolute fuming frenzy. It all fits so nicely when he can be on his tirade without being on those damn stumps. :Q7 A six-pack ribbed super athlete with a temper that has been shown in public just went zongo and snapped. He would have easily had her frightened into feeling a need to retreat or find safety with his macho muscled physique and on-demand temper, but instead he has to considered as having the mobility of an amputee scuttling along on bowling pins.

Prosecution, how can you have it so wrong? :fisties Well that's the way it is militia, that's the way it was and that's why you have it so wrong. The prosecution knows it after having been shamed into the facts that proved it and the sooner you fiction affectionados accept it, the better it will be for your blood pressure. It was not a raging Oscar, it was a vulnerable Oscar to any able bodied person who wanted to exploit it, including Reeva. That's the fact. The only way Reeva would have had to resort to going to the absurd refuge of a toilet due to a fear of him is if Oscar was anatomically normal and REEVA was the one on stumps. Then you might have had a scenario where the logic would have some reasonable merit worthy of consideration.

You can conjure up all the domestic violence whacked out theories you want and the ability for a man to spontaneously com-bust in violence against a woman for no reason or without any previous history of having done it, but you can't get around the factors of physics in this extraordinarily unique case. This is why the prosecution and your Pied Piper hero leading it-- trying to patch together this case of cow pies-- is floundering and resorting to ignoring witnesses who were told they would be called, twisting and contorting words of the defendant, hanging their hopes on witnesses who couldn't possibly have heard what they thought they heard and even attempting to make 4 texts showing a typical boyfriend-girlfriend spat counterbalance 1,700 which showed they were head over heels for each other. It may fly in a fiction novel but not in a real-world scenario where this is enough to send someone to prison for 25 years to life.

Oscar sends this text to Reeva:

"Thank you for being the most beautiful person to me. I'm crazy about you and when I look at you I smile inside."

Then after Reeva had walked out of a photo shoot, he asked if she wanted to come to his house. When she arrived she found sprinkled roses on the floor and chocolates and a heart waiting on the bed for her.

THERE and THATis the real world reality of the relationship between Oscar and Reeva.



No matter how much logic is advanced on these message boards that show guilt is not only far from being proven, it flies blatantly in the face of true unbiased examination of known pertinent facts. I can assure anyone, for every reason you could give me that you are sure he murdered her, I can give you five that will make you look foolish.

I believe you can take it to the bank that there are visuals that are riveted in the minds and memories of Judge Masipa and her assessors and are greatly going to influence their deliberations and verdict:

1. When he took off his stumps and stood precariously by the door
2. When he simulated the kick to the mark the prosecution didn't believe was possible.
3. When he simulated striking the door in a pattern quickly enough to replicate the 3 bangs. [ MAJOR ]


This was already evident to me when Judge Masipa was giving her order for the mental evaluation and repeating several times possible reasons that he may not be criminally responsible. She almost paraphrased and highlighted every element of Oscar's case. She may have had many defendants before her that were accused of murder but NONE had the elements of OP's physical limitation combined with his indisputable hyper vigilance backed by witness testimony. I predict these mitigating factors are going to be huge.

I don't have the slightest doubt that Nel was counting on the fact that Masipa would follow normal precedent after granting the mental observation referral and would commit Oscar to being a ward of the State as a "prisoner" in very unpleasant confinement while awaiting the availability of a bed and a mental eval team. He put all his chips on that likelihood that Oscar would spend up to a couple years and was gobsmacked when Judge Masipa wanted him as an outpatient. Of course he could never let be that known but there is no question in my mind that he was sleazy enough knowing the fate of his case was heading right into the toilet. How fortuitous that Ms Masipa was sitting on the bench and took the heat for thwarting that gutter level prick.

For those of us who aren't into the trumped up wholesale fantasy of Reeva being a deliberate murder victim, here a couple additional subliminal goodies that you might find interesting...

It would be unusual for Reeva to go to the toilet at 3 AM? Oh really? And listen also to what she said she didn't do....just again, coincidentally a giant issue in this case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... tKk#t=3970 to 1:07:06



Another word..."onto" that Nel almost went orgasmic over and turned it into a "gotcha" mistake. But isn't it incredible that he uses it here which is not grammatically correct in its form as used at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... FUg#t=2483 to 42:47


And note his very telling and convincing preface explanation here of hitting the door

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0BM#t=2396



Sometimes the evidence of absence is not absence of evidence. :N13


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:43 am 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Thanks aavi.... good points.

Personally, I never had an issue with somebody getting up to have a pee at 3:00 AM... especially somebody restless.. not asleep.

But as your vid link shows... Reeva does just happen to have texted about waking up and going for a pee at 3:00AM on another occasion.

As far as "absence of evidence" goes...this crops up often... I have tried.. and failed... to explain that although FINDING a person's DNA (or finger print) on an item is conclusive PROOF that the person was in contact with an object... not finding their DNA (finger prints) proves........ NOTHING. Such investigations (tests) are inclusive... but not exclusive.

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:41 am
Posts: 47
Hello. Just checking in to say hello and read up. Been super busy and then sick so I haven't been online for a couple weeks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:10 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
Hi Minor... sorry to hear that :give

You have not missed much with the trial on hold of course...

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:04 am
Posts: 62
aavi,

Thanks for the links. On the second one, though, I'm missing the part about "onto" Is the time correct? At the same link, though, I learned that Oscar had black out curtains. I hadn't listened to his trial testimony personally and, incredibly, have not seen that fact be mentioned in any of the on and on discussion of how unbelievable it is him not seeing Reeva missing from the bed. Black out curtains would explain it.

boy, am I happy not to have to add jmo to every little thing :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:27 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
The next development will be the report following OP's psychiatric assessment.

It is a "worry" when psychiatrists/psychologists get involved in a case at all. Psych evaluation is to some extent "subjective".

However, having said that, then in this case it's clear that OP is effected by "anxiety" and I am sure any diagnosis will include that. GAD is just a label... but I think any diagnosis will include a significant effect of anxiety in OP. Maybe they too will use the "GAD" as defined... but perhaps some other anxiety related "disorder" or "syndrome"

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 6:19 pm
Posts: 2914
I wonder how much (if any) of the evaluation will be made public, the court I’m assuming is under no obligation to reveal anything to any one, other than Oscars team and the State. If there is not a dismissal of the charges due to a mental diagnosis but mitigating circumstances are inferred because of a mental defect, then I assume we will hear a lot about it via “expert” testimony.

_________________
If your mind is agitated you will find agitation everywhere. Where else will you find peace if not within you? __ Papaji


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:40 am
Posts: 142
karmady,

The word is very quick as he uses it in the sentence. The exact time is 42:40.

It is not the proper use of the word as we would use it. Proving that his understanding of the word onto has a different meaning to him than how we would typically use it. But Nel went viral during his testimony trying to imply that he had "tailored" his evidence from what he originally said in the bail application statement--the fact that he said he went out "onto" the balcony.

In that statement he just gave a generalization of what happened, not being aware that every single syllable of every word was going to be ripped apart, micro analyzed and twisted. He just trusted that he had explained the actions he took and he trusted his attorneys to prepare the statement with whatever they felt appropriate from the details he had given them. Not to mention that he was also on substantial amount of medications at that time.

And of course, the blackout drape was what made it pitch dark in the room and impossible to see Reeva even if he had been facing the passageway, which he wasn't. This darkness was illustrated by unbiased top rated attorneys (a male and a female) from South Africa in a YouTube video prior to the trial, attempting to duplicate the conditions to see if his story comported with what they would find. The guy said it was so dark when he closed the drape that he couldn't see his hand in front of his face.

Then by the time Oscar got both fans in, she would have easily been around the corner into the tiled entry way leading to the bathroom and out of sight. He also was turning right as he was placing the fans inside the room and would not have seen Reeva leave the bed either.

He was occupied with both fans with the big one blowing right in his face and masking any noise he would have otherwise heard. By the time he moved both fans, closed the door, the blinds and the curtain, that could have easily been 2-3 minutes. More than enough time for Reeva to have slipped off the end of the bed and to be in the bathroom.

It is also critical that she would have ONLY scooted off the end of the bed because there was all kinds of junk on the floor side of the bed where Oscar was---the iPad, the power strip, cords, telephone, clippers. Just look at a photo. If she had got off the bed on the side where she was (and where Oscar was) she would have been stepping on everything. Nobody would have done that. That's exactly why Oscar didn't see her.

I could fill a legal pad with these coincidences that would have all had to be coincidentally as they were that night for his story to be true. AND THEY ARE ALL THERE !!

These are the things the dense-a-phobes don't seem to get.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:17 pm 
Offline
ADMIN
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:30 pm
Posts: 57118
Location: Pomeroy's Wine Bar
aavi.. the youtube of investigation by two SA attorneys is posted in the "Reference thread"

PISTORIUS REFERENCE - Documents, Photos etc (NO DISCUSSION)
viewtopic.php?f=105&t=1211#p71047

_________________
Image Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:04 am
Posts: 62
Thanks, aavi. I'll listen again, but now that you put it in context, I remember him talking about the balcony.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1157 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 58  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group