kbp: Mitigating factors is somewhat open ended. Bernie's factors will be followed in a vehicle, scoped out from vehicle, left vehicle to track, reached for ____ and George could not know when Trayvon saw the gun. So Bernie has to add the possibility that Trayvon saw the gun before or as George reached for _____.

chipbennett: Followed in a vehicle: fact not in evidence
Scoped out from vehicle: how can making a phone call from inside one's vehicle be an act of physical aggression?
Left vehicle to track: not in evidence when/if Martin even knew of Zimmerman's actions. (Opens door to "why wasn't Martin safely at home after 4 minutes" reasonable doubt question.)
Possibility Martin saw gun early: the gun was concealed; no evidence that he saw it. Martin's actions belie early sight of concealed gun.


Scoping: I did not mean to infer that scoping is physical aggression, merely setting the stage that led up to the confrontation.
Left vehicle to track: George went the wrong way to find a street sign …as he said he was doing.
Possibility Martin saw gun early: The @ "5 o'clock" should mean it was always concealed from Trayvon's view since Trayvon was always in front or on top throughout the time span between confrontation and gun shot. That theory has the accuracy of both sides then in question, so which is correct? Not sure why you say "Martin's actions belie early sight of concealed gun." That's why I think Bernie may say Trayvon saw the gun before he hit George, a reaction to seeing George reach for ___.

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kbp: Bernie's tale could be that Martin saw it at or near the instance George reached for _____. Geore EVER (should have been:) George NEVER actually says he reached into his pocket, more like he is feeling and looking for it in various locations.

chipbennett: Tales != evidence. At some point, the State will have to present evidence to support such tales.


Not if Bernie hopes to put on a show. But could he not call the officer that participated in a "walk through" re-enactment and ask if George knew what Trayvon was thinking when George claimed Trayvon saw the gun and if it's possible Trayvon saw it earlier?

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kbp:Link from YT search: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... kGZgJxTi4#!
George @ 7:50+/-: "…and I went to go grab my cell phone, but my, I had left it in a different pocket, I went, I looked down at my pant pocket (rt side)."
To one observing, had that person seen the holstered gun, what was he to conclude George was reaching AND looking for?

chipbennett: Not logical. The gun was holstered at about 5:00 - i.e. on the back side of the waist circumference. Feeling a hip pocket would not look anything like reaching for an IWB-holstered gun at 5:00.


See remark above on the 5:00 theory. Also, with a loose shirt or jacket on, the reach has to get past it. Maybe the question can be when the gun was more likely to become visible, as George reached to various locations feeling for the cell phone or when Trayvon was in front and on top of him pounding away.

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kbp: Not 100% accurate, but about as close as we can get going off what George said: "I >THINK< I stumbled, I fell down, he pushed me down, somehow he got on top of me." Also, recall that it is difficult to outrun a bullet.

chipbennett: Given the disparity of physical condition, the darkness, the weather conditions, and a stunned Zimmerman who just endured a broken nose, and stumbled to the ground, Martin could have easily run away.


Maybe, then maybe they'd need another Frye hearing to consider expert opinions on outrunning a bullet in that situation and when a person would feel safe attempting it. On a more serious note, according to George, he was still able to yell for help and "squirm" to get his head off the sidewalk, so he was evidently not so out of it that he couldn't have grabbed his gun …and he did soon thereafter.

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kbp:Great point! Bernie has a few bumps in telling the tale as he'd like to, but it has not slowed him down yet. But, there's that issue of the FDLE interviewing #6 and, IIRC, he said he could not be certain which who was yelling for help.

chipbennett: No, Witness 6 always maintained that he believed that it was Zimmerman who was screaming for help. He just said that he couldn't see his mouth moving.

But of more importance, he did not hear the person screaming saying anything like "he's got a gun.


That translates to not being absolutely certain as I read your comment, but absolutely not testimony it was Trayvon screaming. What Trayvon did NOT do is a factor for the jury to consider.

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kbp:If Bernie's goal is a show trial - reasonable doubt of Trayvon's guilt - this is not a problem.

chipbennett: I assume you meant, reasonable doubt of Zimmerman's guilt?

That's why there is an appeals court, because without overcoming all reasonable doubt, the DCA will acquit. (I don't think they'll even order a new trial; they'll just reverse.)


No, I meant "Trayvon's guilt." Bernie has not struck me as trying to convict George, but more like he has been trying to defend Trayvon …reasonable doubt that Trayvon committed a crime. How many times has Crump and others mentioned that Trayvon is NOT on trial.

How can Bernie overcome the fact that George had, at the minimum, serious bodily harm resulting from non-stop "MMA" attack that would give any reasonable person fear of great bodily harm? (In most states George's injuries would be evidence of great bodily harm.) I do not think Bernie can, so he'll debate what "is" is trying to lessen the damage obvious and justify having taken this to court, while defending Trayvon.

On one of the HLN segments after the trial recessed, I got a chuckle out of a female lawyer who told the host:

"Today, Bernie asked the stupidest question out of the entire three days - 'are you a stealth juror? - to one of the potential jurors! I mean, if you ask that question, what is the person going to say?? He asked that question and immediately sat down. He wanted her so bad on that jury!!"

Thanks! I thought all they wanted was an arrest.

No wait! All they wanted was a trial...............

Now all they want is justice. What a way to get justice by attempting to intimidate the press during jury selection.

Which family does Tracy belong to now?

I'm a little foggy about that.

From CTH......

The Manipulation and The Trayvon Scheme of Lies Continues….
Posted on June 12, 2013 by sundance

Today after trial for jury selection Trayvon’s™ Mom, Sybrina, and Trayvon’s™ Dad, Tracy, gave a press conference. However, just before they delivered their prepared remarks something serendipitous happened in the courtroom which brings a profound irony when contrast against their prepared statement.

TrayvonMartin family attorneys just emailed out text of the statement Crump gave after GeorgeZimmerman jury selection today.

"Today on the third day of the jury selection in the Trayvon Martin murder trial we are inspired by the honesty of the potential jurors. Their answers have been forthright and we have faith that the justice system and the members of the public who are selected for the jury will perform their civic duty in a fair and impartial manner. Yesterday, former NYPD detective Harry Houck commented to FOX that Trayvon would be alive today if he didn’t have a “street attitude.” This comment, made on a live panel, is reprehensible and extremely reminiscent of the victim blaming rhetoric we saw a year ago. We all know Trayvon Martin was an unarmed teenager, who'd just bought Skittles and a tea on a chilly Florida evening in February. George Zimmerman was an armed adult who followed Trayvon down a street, pursued him and then shot him.
We are calling on the media to refuse to perpetuate victim blaming and irresponsible characterizations of Trayvon. The evidence shows there is no blood on Trayvon’s hands. Trayvon is not on trial here, he is the victim. Trayvon’s killer, George Zimmerman, is the man who is on trial."

The irony is thick when you consider only a few moments before a pro-Trayvon activist who received a jury notification was caught lying to the court in an attempt to secure a place on the jury. He was identified as "E-7":

...more at link
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... continues/

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

He's spending a lot of time with MsCandy now.

Trayvon Martin justice group member tries to get onto George Zimmerman jury

Jerry Counelis gave long, rambling answers about his impartiality when asked basic questions by attorneys. When Circuit Judge Debra Nelson asked the panelist hopeful if he posted something to the Facebook page of pro-Martin group Coffee Party Progressives, he said ‘yes.’

By Lisa Lucas , Corky Siemaszko AND Ginger Adams Otis / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Published: Wednesday, June 12, 2013, 6:37 PM
Updated: Wednesday, June 12, 2013, 7:45 PM

A member of a pro-Travyon Martin group was unmasked Wednesday as he tried to get on the Florida jury in George Zimmerman’s trial for shooting the unarmed teen.

A white male potential juror identified on his Facebook page as Jerry Counelis gave long, rambling answers about his impartiality when asked basic questions by attorneys.

Counelis, known as panelist E-7, said he was an unemployed painter and musician and had no problem being sequestered if chosen to serve on the jury.

After both prosecution and defense attorneys finished questioning the potential juror, they requested a sidebar with the judge.

...more at link
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1370906

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Potential George Zimmerman juror dismissed over Facebook post
Zimmerman charged in death of Trayvon Martin
Published On: Jun 12 2013 06:45:21 AM EDT Updated On: Jun 12 2013 07:45:33 PM EDT

SANFORD, Fla. -George Zimmerman's attorneys have confirmed on Wednesday that they have eliminated a possible juror in Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial over a Facebook post.

Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara said that potential juror, 55-year-old unemployed painter and guitar player Jerry Counelis, told attorneys that he only decided Zimmerman should have been arrested after he was arrested. The posting was found on Facebook more than two weeks before Zimmerman was arrested.

The March 21, 2012 posting was on the Facebook page called "The Coffee Party Progressive," a website brought up to "bring justice to Trayvon."

...more at link
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/jury-s ... index.html

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Could George Zimmerman jury candidate face perjury charges?
24 people questioned so far in jury selection
Published 6:59 PM EDT Jun 12, 2013

SANFORD, Fla. —A potential juror who was questioned Wednesday may have perjured himself about a Facebook post on the third day of jury selection for the George Zimmerman trial, according to WESH 2’s legal analysts.

The juror, whose identity is being kept confidential, said he had not written anything about the case on social media websites.

Attorneys apparently found information that suggested the jury candidate did, in fact, make inflammatory posts. The juror apparently called the Sanford Police Department corrupt.

“You put him in jail. That’s the bottom line,” legal analyst Richard Hornsby said.

Hornsby said that juror should face perjury charges.

“Judge Nelson needs to step in and hold him in contempt,” Hornsby said.

Zimmerman's wife, Shellie Zimmerman, faces a perjury charge in the case.

Zimmerman faces second-degree murder charges in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

....more at link
http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florid ... index.html

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I haven't seen that press conference on msn anywhere. Has anyone else?

I hope the media turns their back on Crump!!

Good point MBTB... it will be interesting to see if MSM play the "press conference"?

I imagine they will? It was sanctioned by Court... else they could not have done it in a Court Room.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

See lots of chatter about the 18 yr old and the last woman, does anyone know if they are still candidates?

She's got that pending criminal contempt hearing with BDLR to finish up, too.

Jinkasaras just said on HLN after Dark, they have 20 jurors and need 10 more to move to the next phase.

If it didn't constitute physical aggression, and wasn't in any other way threatening, then it doesn't constitute a mitigating factor.



Point being: Martin had eluded Zimmerman's visual contact well before Zimmerman ever got out of his vehicle. Martin didn't see Zimmerman get out of his vehicle (unless he had already circled back, or was waiting in ambush all along - neither of which corroborate a reasonable fear regarding Zimmerman's imminent actions).



That Zimmerman's gun was in an IWB holster at the 5:00 position is not a matter of contention. IIRC, that is the exact description from one of the SPD officer statements. That's where Zimmerman's gun was, and he was wearing a jacket that would further conceal an IWB holster. I can state with 100% certainty that unless Zimmerman brandished his gun, Martin did not see that gun while Zimmerman was upright.



None of Martin's actions were reasonable or prudent for someone who saw someone else with a gun, and who believed that said gun would be used imminently.



Isn't it hearsay to ask person A if person B knew what person C was thinking at a given point in time?

Also: establishing that it is possible that scenario X took place merely adds reasonable doubt, which once again favors the defense.



The position of the IWB holster is not theory; it is established fact.

Given the length of Zimmerman's jacket, the only way for it to rise high enough to display the IWB-holstered gun would be for Zimmerman to reach high over his head with his right hand - and even then, the gun might still not have been visible.

The most likely, and only plausible, way for Martin to have discovered the gun would have been when Zimmerman was on the ground, and struggling to get up, during which his jacket could rise.



The ability to point a gun at someone straddling you, and hitting a torso directly above you, does not in any way correlate to the ability to aim a gun at someone who has attempted to run away. Especially in the dark and rain. Especially when on one's back. And especially when one's vision an mental clarity has been clouded by a broken nose and subsequent assault, including blunt trauma to the back of the head.



In the opinion of Witness 6, Witness 6 is certain regarding who was screaming. BDLR introduced the "could you see his mouth moving" canard, in order to pollute his testimony with reasonable doubt.



Again: this is why the appeals court matters. Reasonable doubt that Martin committed an assault that justified Zimmerman's use of deadly force in self-defense is plainly not sufficient to provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense, and that Zimmerman did commit second-degree murder.



And that is why, should there be a conviction, the DCA will overturn it.

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"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)

Last I heard the judge moved that to post trial.

Judge No said at start of today... they would seat 30 in jury box (have 30 chairs)

Then next bit will be addressing them all.... perhaps still asking individuals questions? Who knows?

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Lets NOT get into Doxing people

Jerry Counelis is outed.... but do not post family member details etc.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I can readily understand why he would start carrying a gun if able. I have had bad experiences with these loose pit bulls and animal control seems helpless to correct the situation. The people who owned the dogs I called about were neglectful and didn't have the assets to back up any damage their animals caused. They reminded me of people driving wrecks (with minimum insurance) and putting everyone they come into contact with at risk. It is just the way they live their lives and nothing gets through to them.

I would have carried a gun, but it was hard to get a carry permit. I wanted to get a stun gun, but even that wasn't allowed. My animal control told me that pepper spray doesn't work on these animals and they sent warning letters. But what does that matter to people whose lives are just accidents waiting to happen?

I didn't know it had been done in a court room because I won't watch anything more with them. That is so terribly wrong. It gives them an air of authority when they don't have any at all.