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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:02 am 
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It's great to have Chip posting here as well as you AIF :63

I hope this place can be "complimentary" to CTH.
They are different types of forums... clearly some at CTH would welcome some posting being done here rather than there. :24

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:16 am 
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GZ Legal has posted notice of Reciprocal discovery

Defendant's Supplemental Notice of Reciprocal Discovery

Quote:
on 18 January 2013.
The defense has filed DEFENDANT’S SUPPLEMENTAL NOTICE OF RECIPROCAL DISCOVERY. The notice cites several items found in the records of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement that had not previously been disclosed or furnished to the defense. Once these items have been redacted we will post them to our website.


See Documents thread
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=195&p=20001#p20001

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:31 am 
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They are NOT going to like this in the Trayvon Zone… major advanced diminishing and denial to do here… third day in a row? And they are short staffed what with a lot of worker cretins having run away :31

On a more serious note.
MOM would not have picked this evidence out of the FDLE files unless it was evidence that favoured GZ

So there is much for the prosecution and the Lynch Mob to worry about.

Also... it is a farce that Judge Nelson required the Defence to go through FDLE files and hunt for stuff that the State should have supplied as discovery. It is the States job to collect evidence... all evidence. They have the resources and the link with FDLE to do that. Discovery is not suppose to be a game of hide stuff if you think you can get away with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:34 am 
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Rumpole wrote:
rumpole2 says:
January 18, 2013 at 9:22 am

So you don’t think that BDLR has a “cunning plan” to keep all his evidence secret until the last minute?
He does seem to be able to get away with NOT releasing discovery by the due date. :D
I think Occams razor needs to be applied for the dopes at JQ.
1.The prosecution has not outlined their “theory” because they don’t have one (That would stand up in court)
2. The State has not released the evidence that counter’s George and his supoorters, because there is no such evidence.

To imagine the BDLR has a cunning plan up his sleeve a la Perry Mason with the private Dick bursting into court just before the case is lost with a star witness is not only silly and delusional… but would not be allowed under Florida law and rules of Discovery.
“Trial by Ambush” is not allowed. Perry Mason would be out of work in Florida these days… I guess he could always usurp Teeto and be the Legal expert posting at JQ :D


Do you have a better witness list that in all inclusive? I can't seem to find a good link that has everyone/numbered on it. Like W10 which has to be Chad Green. It doesn't appear that anyone from the SPD ever interviewed him, which I do not understand, just the SAO investigators did that. Maybe DiwataMan has done it and I can't find it on his site?

I still want to know what was happening when The Prosecution flew W8 up to Jacksonville in early August 2012. IIRC, that was an overnight stay. I can only assume that BDLR did not take her to Disney World. I am thinking he might have asked her to expand on what was going on during that missing "couple of minutes" that he so carefully avoiding asking her during he sworn statement back in April.

Wouldn't that be something that they have to release? I wonder if MOM already has a copy of that visit since he has never asked via subpoena.

Off to go read some of the Reciprocal Discovery...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:55 am 
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I have added locations noted in GZ Legal Suplimentary discovery today

Kohl's Car Park
Sam's Club
Lake Edge Apartments

Interactive Map:
http://goo.gl/maps/EXlPu

Screen Shot (Not Interactive)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:47 pm 
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O'Mara releases list of defense evidence
The list of 15 items does not appear to include any blockbusters.


By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
11:15 a.m. EST, January 18, 2013

George Zimmerman's attorneys today gave official notice to prosecutors of some of the evidence they plan to use.

Their list includes 15 new items. None appears to be a blockbuster. Instead, the list is mostly police and FDLE records that appear to be the equivalent of fine print, for example a subpoena request by a FDLE agent for Trayvon Martin's phone records; a letter former State Attorney Norm Wolfinger wrote to FDLE, asking its help; a crime line report about a potential 8-year-old witness for whom authorities searched but could not find; Sanford police records on calls for help from Zimmerman's neighborhood; and police and FDLE evidence property receipts.

The list also includes four pieces of video, three of them surveillance video from retail stores, parking lots or apartments. It's not clear what their evidentiary value is.

The same is true for the fourth piece of video: FDLE agents taking George Zimmerman into custody in Jacksonville on April 11. He had been living in hiding and, after a phone request from an FDLE agent, drove his rented Dodge Avenger to a Jacksonville McDonald's to meet with the agent, according to prosecution records.

....more at link
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/loc ... 6731.story

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Rene can't help herself... without knowing WHAT the evidence shows she is diminishing it's importance right from the sub-heading of the article

The list of 15 items does not appear to include any blockbusters.


:45

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:04 pm 
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From GZ Legal Site

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases



MOTION FOR SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM TO AMERICAN BROADCASTING COMPANY (ABC)

Quote:
on 18 January 2013.
The defense has filed the following MOTION FOR SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM TO AMERICAN BROADCASTING COMPANY (ABC), ALSO KNOW AS AMERICAN BROADCASTING COMPANIES. (ABC,INC.), AND ITS DIVISIONS, SUBSIDIARIES, AND AFFILIATES.
MOTION FOR SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM TO AMERICAN BROADCASTING COMPANY (ABC), ALSO KNOW AS AMERICAN BROADCASTING COMPANIES. (ABC,INC.), AND ITS DIVISIONS, SUBSIDIARIES, AND AFFILIATES


MOTION FOR SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM TO AMERICAN BROADCASTING COMPANY (ABC)
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/document ... to_abc.pdf

The following NOTICE OF HEARING has been filed with the court.
NOTICE OF HEARING
http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/document ... earing.pdf

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:09 pm 
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AghastInFL wrote:
Welcome to RT Chip :51 it is good to read your postings here as we'll as the Treehouse. Personally I have saved many of your previous posts for quick review when countering baseless argument from the TMcrowd. You should know your work and eloquence is appreciated.


Well, thank you. :) I appreciate that, and I'm happy to be here!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:04 am 
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Daily Daft Posts From Justarse Quest

Within minutes of Defence Reciprocal discovery being posted…….

INSTANT denial (as predicted)

    This is a lie. This is O'Smeara lying.


Like seeing sharks savage pieces of bloody meat.

Evidence is BAD… deny and down play..... in fact they would prefer it was never seen, yet they don’t see that this makes them Questers for a preordained outcome, and not justice, or truth or anything other than a Lynchin’

Papapinhead wrote:
This is a lie. This is O'Smeara lying. As we heard in the hearing, the State had all the evidence in discovery laid out for O'Smeara months ago and all he had to do is pick and choose what he wanted. He is trying to paint the prosecution in a negative light, and it's not going to work on those familiar with this case thus far.


Please stick broadly to GZ case in this thread.

To discuss JQ, go to
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=63&p=20031#p20031

(More of Papapinhead, LameLaughLoon, and Sharona at link)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:50 am 
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Rumpole wrote:
Plastifab1 wrote:
In the document thread here, at page 20, Serino discusses the photo pin.... I couldn't find any where that someone removed it and put it in his pocket - I do remember something about the pin being in Trayvon's pocket. Old mind..can't remember it all. http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/3 ... ts-ocr.pdf

Thanks.
Serino Sgt. Ciesla does describe pin on sweat shirt, but....

In the same 184 page discovery, the pin is described as being from TM's pockets

With just a skim through the 184 pages now I found .... evidence log entries on Pages 07, 22, 31, 45, 51, 58, 66, 75, and 82
Quote:
DMS•10 PERSONAL EFFECTS
One (1) red "711/1 brand name lighter, photo button, bag of skittles, and headphones.
Located and collected from with in the victim's pockets.

There are some frustrating discrepancies in evidence details.

People will chose to believe what best fits their theory. I assume this matter will be resolved with questioning at depositions.
(If it is considered important by either side)


I too have been mildly worried about discrepancies in regard to evidence described as from TM's pockets in logs, yet noted as outside TM's pockets by some at the crime scene. I worry because it would be a BIG distraction to have Court time wasted over bickering about what should be simple facts.

I think things have been resolved for me.... by Sundance at CTH:

sundance says:
Quote:
January 19, 2013 at 3:23 am
The discrepancies between the “in pocket” evidence vs. “out of pocket” evidence is easily reconciled. I have actually spoken to these people, not just read their reports. the pocket contents were removed when looking for ID. They were replaced. Various PD folks saw the actual body during this process, that’s why some saw them on the ground, others did not.

The only things OUTSIDE of the pockets in the crime scene were the items marked and photographed with the exception of the Watermelon Juice can. That was photographed on top of the victim (tarp covering him) because it could not be placed easily back into his pockets. That’s why there are pictures of that item *on* the tarp at the scene.

If it was not marked, photographed, and location identified, it was in his pockets. Period.

That’s why it is not in dispute.


Also at CTH "nomatter_nevermind" corrected a mistake that both I and Plastifab1 made in the above quoted post.

nomatter_nevermind says:
Quote:
January 19, 2013 at 3:21 am
That’s actually Sgt. Ciesla’s report. See p. 19 of the pdf, which is the first page of the report.

Serino’s name is at the top of p. 20 because he is the lead investigator.

Almost everyone, it seems, makes that mistake the first time through. I know I did.


So.... I am some what relieved to have those matters clarified to my satisfaction.

Lighter, photo button, bag of skittles, and headphones were all......

Located and collected from with in the victim's pockets.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:45 am 
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I have question that perhaps the magical Sundance can answer. He obliviously has access to the full scope of the photographs, I presumed that is part of the package that he paid for as media. Jeralyn also paid for that media access and will not allow any photo to be published. There is a court ordered ban for releasing any pictures that have the body in view.

Much has been made of W3 and her description of the white shirt. But when I was reading through the witness statements, she is not the only one that uses that description. W2 did also. The only thing I have to look at is the photo taken by W13. In that picture, the very dark hoodie photographs a very light grey but you can see the dark band of the hood part around the neck.

On page 6 of this link, Anthony Gargone changed the descriptions of ME8 and ME12. They were reversed. But the DNA on ME8 in on the cuff of the inner sweat shirt.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/new ... 2-0919.pdf

What I am curious about is if the lighting conditions/weather factors/mist could appear to make that very dark hoodie photograph so light. Or if the grey sweat was placed over the dark hoodie. In the 7-Eleven video, Martin is wearing the dark hoodie as an outer garment.

Is the dark hoodie visible in the photos as the definitive outer garment at the time of the shooting?

Sorry this is kind of a convoluted thought process but it has been bugging me for a couple of days. Both have the white/light shirts and W2 goes as far as to describe the white tennis shoes. I don't remember if W3 mentioned the shoes but she definitely is describing Martin in her statement. She says (paraphrased) that he is laying like he is sleeping while describing Zimmerman in red talking to the officer.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Rumpole wrote:
Lighter, photo button, bag of skittles, and headphones were all......

Located and collected from with in the victim's pockets.


The button being in Martin's pockets is inculpatory (of Martin) enough, as it implies both that he had time to take off a button and put it in his pocket, and that he had some motive for intentionally removing the button and putting it in his pocket. Firstly: it is hard to argue that he was being pursued hotly, if he had time to stop and remove his button. Secondly: what motive would Martin have for such a deliberate act? One could reasonably conclude that Martin was preparing to engage in a fight, by removing identifying items, or items that could cause injury to himself in a fight.

But more importantly: I don't see how the Dee Dee testimony is not utterly impeached in its entirety by the fact that Martin's headphones were found in his pocket.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:53 pm 
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I had mentioned this over at the CTH. For me, the separation of the can from the bag; the bag lying on the walk right where Georgie's head would have been; the can inside his hoodie; is much more telling as to intent, than the pin and earbud locations. I'm not saying they are not important, just for me the bag and can separation is much more.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:54 pm 
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Couple of points.

Yes, I agree all those items being found in TM's pockets show a pause and preparation to fight.

I do not have a cell phone :24 But I assume that at a pinch, TM could have carried on talking on phone directly even after placing earphone in pocket? (Not saying he did, just he could and so earbuds in pocket does not rule out convo with DeeDee).

I do think it is very important that the Can and 7-11 bag parted company at the scene... for whatever reason.
Can used as weapon
Bag used as knuckle wrap
Both
Or simply... again as part of fight preparation, TM put can in his hoodie and simply dropped the bag.
(Note: In that case perhaps TM was guilty of "Littering")

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:56 pm 
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DebFrmHell wrote:
Sorry this is kind of a convoluted thought process but it has been bugging me for a couple of days. Both have the white/light shirts and W2 goes as far as to describe the white tennis shoes. I don't remember if W3 mentioned the shoes but she definitely is describing Martin in her statement. She says (paraphrased) that he is laying like he is sleeping while describing Zimmerman in red talking to the officer.


Deb, I actually look to YOU for details like this... and the people at TL


Please share the fruits of your investigation.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:57 pm 
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chipbennett wrote:
Rumpole wrote:
Lighter, photo button, bag of skittles, and headphones were all......

Located and collected from with in the victim's pockets.


The button being in Martin's pockets is inculpatory (of Martin) enough, as it implies both that he had time to take off a button and put it in his pocket, and that he had some motive for intentionally removing the button and putting it in his pocket. Firstly: it is hard to argue that he was being pursued hotly, if he had time to stop and remove his button. Secondly: what motive would Martin have for such a deliberate act? One could reasonably conclude that Martin was preparing to engage in a fight, by removing identifying items, or items that could cause injury to himself in a fight.

But more importantly: I don't see how the Dee Dee testimony is not utterly impeached in its entirety by the fact that Martin's headphones were found in his pocket.


I have been talking INTENT on Martin's behalf for months. Merely because he had about 4 minutes off the grid yet still managed to find his way back to that "T" intersection.

I still don't understand why that button was not submitted for testing. The singe and soot was apprx a 2 inch square. From the location of the button in the video, if it were still on the hoodie, it would have some gun shot residue or blood on it.

Even the candy bag, safely in the pocket had some blood residue but I think that there are two possibilities 1) is from the action of pulling up the hoodie and sweatshirt to access the wound during CPR efforts. 2) the gloved hand of the officer doing the CPR was the same had that was removing the items in an effort to find ID transferred the blood. If all of the other items, with the exception of the can, were in the pocket, wouldn't they have some kind of blood evidence, too? Why wouldn't any or all of the items be submitted for testing?

Aren't all of those Items still in LE possession? If I only had $2500 to test an item, my choice would be that button for gunshot residue. If there was none, it was in the pocket.

Something doesn't make sense to me. LOL. Story of my life.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:05 pm 
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What we often do at forums is worry away at details. Pull at loose threads.... pick at scabs. We focus on the details of a small twig when when there is a forest of evidence including very large trees all around us. :45

But in my limited experience a lot of details are never presented to a Jury, and when details are presented, its hard to get them across to a jury. Both sides often try and confuse juries with details that really have ZERO importance to the overwhelming larger picture.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:41 pm 
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I am looking for a post of mine where I quoted Jeralyn opening with a comment about getting hung up on minor points.... have not found it yet... but this is worth reposting.....

Rumpole wrote:
A good outline in a "TalkLeft" post at TalkLeft Forum

http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/to ... l#msg98384

Excerpts:
BBM
Quote:
"Absolute Irrefutable proof" is not the test for either side in a criminal case. For the state, it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ committed murder (or the lesser included manslaughter offense). That requires them to disprove GZ's self-defense theory.

There were no injuries on TM other than the gunshot besides a scrape on one finger. He does not display injuries of being physically confronted by GZ while GZ has injuries/marks/scrapes on the top, sides and back of his head, his face, and a broken nose to show he was physically attacked by TM.

As of now, no witness saw the onset of the altercation. No witness reported seeing George push or shove Trayvon. The state has not even alleged that. Zimmerman says Martin attacked him without provocation. Unless Zimmerman's version of events is not physically possible, how will it disprove his account? Not by saying "But this could have happened." The state needs evidence to support its theories. Inferences must come from the evidence. Reasonable doubt can arise from the evidence presented or lack of evidence presented.

You also need to realize that Florida law says that at trial, when the evidence concludes, if the facts present two reasonable explanations for what happened, one of which supports the Defendant's claim of self-defense, the judge should grant a motion for judgment of acquittal and not even submit the case to the jury.

While Zimmerman's account alone could be sufficient, the fact that W-13 (and I believe W-6) heard him say he shot TM in self-defense is considered corroborating evidence.

If reasonable people can view the evidence differently, the jurors likely will too, and if one of those views supports Zimmerman, it requires an acquittal.

The state's theory that GZ could have avoided any encounter with TM by staying in his car may be factually accurate, but it is immaterial, in my view, under the statutes and case law as to whether GZ acted in self-defense. TM could also have avoided the encounter had he not gone to 7-11 that night, or by going directly home. Zimmerman was in a place he lawfully had a right to be -- the public areas of his neighborhood. The state keeps saying TM wasn't doing anything unlawful. That's not the test. according to Florida law:
Quote:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

So please stop confusing readers with "well this could have happened" and "this hasn't been ruled out." That's not the test.

Try to think of it from the perspective of: The state presents its case first. What evidence -- testimony and exhibits -- will it present to show murder or manslaughter? Assuming it makes a sufficient case -- then the defense presents its evidence of self-defense. What does the state have to refute his theory that amounts to proof beyond a reasonable doubt his self-defense claim is not valid?

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