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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:14 am 
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forensicpsy wrote:
Thank you. It took me awhile but I made it and it's good to be here. :28

To those people who don't follow the case like we do I think GZ's interview was for the most part positive. He really had no choice after the cousin accused him of being a pervert.

The prosecutor, however, will try and use some of his statements against him.

IMO this is not a Murder 2 case. I do think he's guilty of manslaughter.


Hi there, forensic, glad you made it over! :69

I agree with you about why GZ had to do the interview, but for me, it was a big problem - he showed absolutely NO remorse. Nothing. He couldn't eke out the tiniest bit of sincere=sounding remorse. If he shows a jury what I saw in that interview, he's cooked. But then again, there's no way O'Mara will put him on the stand.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:37 am 
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Rumpole wrote:
It seems to me that the mob currently engaged in nit-picking the details of GZ's version of events are totally missing the point. Debating exact distances to GZ's truck or TM's body etc is ultimately not critically important.

They have convinced themselves that GZ is a "total liar" (whatever that is), obese, abusing prescription drugs, abusing alcohol, he has mental problems, he is a "sociopath" (lol they love that one in every case) etc etc etc.
(As an aside: Personally I hope GZ considers some libel suits against the owners and posters at some Forums).

But, for the sake of the argument, even if you dismiss GZ's version.... what version is there?

As I keep saying, it is not sufficient to propose what MIGHT have happened..... the State needs to PROVE what happened beyond reasonable doubt. For that they need evidence, and so far have released NONE other than Dee Dee's statement. That is WEAK to say the least, and has not yet been subject to much scrutiny. The nit-pickers will no doubt give Dee Dee a pass, but they could have a field day I am sure once Dee Dee is cross examined. Besides.... even Dee Dee's evidence SUPPORTS the general scenario that TM went back to confront GZ.

I laugh at the nit-picking and parsing. I laugh at all the "psychologists" and "medical doctors" and "lawyers" giving their diagnoses and repeating over and over the same thing as if it will suddenly, magically turn into a fact. Then these same "professionals" go on to invent outlandish scenarios and reasons. I especially love those magical clubhouse videos (no time or date stamp to verify them) - and how posters actually thought they saw Zimmerman's red shirt, his bald head and on and on. RIDICULOUS.

This happens with so many of the cases posters latch onto - you've got certain individuals who love to sound authoritative, good at the computer graphics, seeing things that are just not there. Conspiracy theories, loaded with unhealthy doses of paranoia. Oh yeah, THEY will solve the case. THEY know more than the police and are hilariously encouraged by the sheeple hanging onto their every silly word to "pass it on to LE," because surely LE can't be as smart! :31

The emotional investmest is beyond the pale, when they attack/mock/bash posters they've posting with for years in order to defend people they have never met.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:43 am 
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forensicpsy wrote:
Thank you. It took me awhile but I made it and it's good to be here. :28

To those people who don't follow the case like we do I think GZ's interview was for the most part positive. He really had no choice after the cousin accused him of being a pervert.

The prosecutor, however, will try and use some of his statements against him.

IMO this is not a Murder 2 case. I do think he's guilty of manslaughter.

Definitely not Murder 2. My personal feeling is that he does need some form of punishment, but not what the rabid mob is calling for. It was interesting how they had "negligent homicide" on the police reports. I don't exactly know the difference between the two charges as far as mandatory minimum/maximum years to serve? Or what other lesser charges, if any, the jury will be able to consider?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:40 am 
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Remote wrote:
Definitely not Murder 2. My personal feeling is that he does need some form of punishment, but not what the rabid mob is calling for. It was interesting how they had "negligent homicide" on the police reports. I don't exactly know the difference between the two charges as far as mandatory minimum/maximum years to serve? Or what other lesser charges, if any, the jury will be able to consider?

After getting past "Evil vigilante gunning down little child" my first "informed" thought was that it was manslaughter... but now I don't think even that.
Placed in a situation where he was being beaten up... it is the VERY SITUATION that people carry concealed weapons for. A situation you HOPE never arises, but the very situation that you have a gun for. Anybody who carries a gun (there are many posting at other well known forums)... who would NOT have used their gun when pinned to the ground having their head bashed in, should STOP carrying their gun. They are only providing a weapon for a potential attacker.

IMO GZ did nothing wrong in reporting a stranger, and did nothing wrong in trying to see where he was heading, so as to be able to tell the cops when they arrived. I would have done the same. It was TM who attacked GZ, and persisted with that attack. Unless some evidence shows otherwise... I accept GZ's description of Self Defence.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:39 am 
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Thanks to "diwataman" at The Last Refuge

Quote:
This is not finished yet but this is what I got for the Civilian list on the Discovery. W4, W7 And W10 are Brandy Green, Chad Green and someone else(still trying to figure that one out). W24 is an absolute mystery to me, I could not see who talked to whoever that is.

Civilians (61)
Fulton, Jahvarius
Fulton, Sybrina
Martin, Tracy
Oliver, Joe
Taffe, Francis
Zimmerman, Robert

12 People from various gun clubs/sellers
Akkawi
Anderson
Brantly
Frazier
Hackett
McKinney
McLeod
Mehler
Perillo
Stinnet
Taylor
Wright

W1 Eye Witness, arms flailing, didn’t mention arms flailing in second interview just arms
W2 Eye Witness, changed story about chase, sister of W1
W3 Eye Witness, 911 Call, White T shirt girl
W4 Brandy Green, Chad Green or ? (SAO, O’Steen)
W5 Eye Witness, 911 Call, Mary Cutcher
W6 Eye Witness, 911 Call, John
W7 Brandy Green, Chad Green or ? (SAO, O’Steen)
W8 DeeDee (p.36/284)
W9 George’s Cousin
W10 Brandy Green, Chad Green or ? (SAO, O’Steen)
W11 911 Call with yells, FBI
W12 Eye Witness, Wife of W13
W13 Eye Witness, Guy who went outside
W14 Eye Witness, 911 caller(sister), Little black boy (p33/284)
W15 Sister of 14
W16 Selma
W17 Wife of John
W18 Eye Witness, 911 caller, loony woman/hired P.I.
W19 911 caller, lady who thought it was the old man
W20 Boyfriend of W11
W21 HOA President, FBI
W22 Co-worker, Achmed the terrorist
W23 97/284 FBI Co-Worker
W24 ?
W25 Trayvon’s Cousin p.9 SAO, Gilbreath
W26 George’s Friend/Air Marshall (FDLE, Lee p.77-80)
W27 FBI
W28 FBI
W29 95/284, FBI, Resident
W30 FBI
W31 711 Clerk (FDLE, Crosby)
W32 FBI
W33 FBI
W34 FBI
W35 FBI
W36 FBI
W37 FBI
W38 FBI
W39 FBI
W40 FBI
W41 FBI
W42 FBI
W43 FBI

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Rumpole wrote:
After getting past "Evil vigilante gunning down little child" my first "informed" thought was that it was manslaughter... but now I don't think even that.
Placed in a situation where he was being beaten up... it is the VERY SITUATION that people carry concealed weapons for. A situation you HOPE never arises, but the very situation that you have a gun for. Anybody who carries a gun (there are many posting at other well known forums)... who would NOT have used their gun when pinned to the ground having their head bashed in, should STOP carrying their gun. They are only providing a weapon for a potential attacker.

IMO GZ did nothing wrong in reporting a stranger, and did nothing wrong in trying to see where he was heading, so as to be able to tell the cops when they arrived. I would have done the same. It was TM who attacked GZ, and persisted with that attack. Unless some evidence shows otherwise... I accept GZ's description of Self Defence.

It's my opinion that what George did was clearly self defense, and not any kind of murder offense. George appeared to be sorry that someone did lose his life and was sorry parents had lost a child. But I believe George truly has no regrets in what he did that night since what he did clearly saved his own life. I believe that is what he meant by "God's will." He was trying to say that he believed it was only by God's will that he had his gun with him that night in order to be able to use it when it was needed. Many people say the same things when they believe "providence" had a part in turning imminent danger away from them. His TV interview had a positive impression upon me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Welcome newbies - Forensicpsy and Remote and any others I have missed!


:92

I don't write here much ... :47

'Nuff said? :95


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Rumpole wrote:
IMO GZ did nothing wrong in reporting a stranger, and did nothing wrong in trying to see where he was heading, so as to be able to tell the cops when they arrived. I would have done the same. It was TM who attacked GZ, and persisted with that attack. Unless some evidence shows otherwise... I accept GZ's description of Self Defence.


seeing_eye wrote:
It's my opinion that what George did was clearly self defense, and not any kind of murder offense. George appeared to be sorry that someone did lose his life and was sorry parents had lost a child. But I believe George truly has no regrets in what he did that night since what he did clearly saved his own life. I believe that is what he meant by "God's will." He was trying to say that he believed it was only by God's will that he had his gun with him that night in order to be able to use it when it was needed. Many people say the same things when they believe "providence" had a part in turning imminent danger away from them. His TV interview had a positive impression upon me.


I totally agree. That's exactly what he meant. The media and others are twisting the God's will phrase to mean something it doesn't.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Joni wrote:
Welcome newbies - Forensicpsy and Remote and any others I have missed!


:92

I don't write here much ... :47

'Nuff said? :95


Thank you, Joni.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:32 pm 
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I wonder if Tracy Martin's "God" allows him to shack up with Brandy Green (and her son) while he's married to Alicia.
I'm not sure yet if Brandy is married.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:53 pm 
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I wonder where Brandy is nowadays?

The fund-raising and promotion tour seems to be Tracy back with Sybrina Fulton.(Trayvon's Mother)

In hindsight, it is a shame that there was not more investigation in and around Brandy's town house.

A search of the "back porch" area perhaps.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:48 pm 
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seeing_eye wrote:
It's my opinion that what George did was clearly self defense, and not any kind of murder offense. George appeared to be sorry that someone did lose his life and was sorry parents had lost a child. But I believe George truly has no regrets in what he did that night since what he did clearly saved his own life. I believe that is what he meant by "God's will." He was trying to say that he believed it was only by God's will that he had his gun with him that night in order to be able to use it when it was needed. Many people say the same things when they believe "providence" had a part in turning imminent danger away from them. His TV interview had a positive impression upon me.


It did on me also.

forensicpsy wrote:
I totally agree. That's exactly what he meant. The media and others are twisting the God's will phrase to mean something it doesn't.


I agree what he meant by "God's will", but the second he said it, I knew it was going to be misunderstood.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:51 am 
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A good outline in a "TalkLeft" post at TalkLeft Forum

http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/to ... l#msg98384

Excerpts:
BBM
Quote:
"Absolute Irrefutable proof" is not the test for either side in a criminal case. For the state, it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ committed murder (or the lesser included manslaughter offense). That requires them to disprove GZ's self-defense theory.

There were no injuries on TM other than the gunshot besides a scrape on one finger. He does not display injuries of being physically confronted by GZ while GZ has injuries/marks/scrapes on the top, sides and back of his head, his face, and a broken nose to show he was physically attacked by TM.

As of now, no witness saw the onset of the altercation. No witness reported seeing George push or shove Trayvon. The state has not even alleged that. Zimmerman says Martin attacked him without provocation. Unless Zimmerman's version of events is not physically possible, how will it disprove his account? Not by saying "But this could have happened." The state needs evidence to support its theories. Inferences must come from the evidence. Reasonable doubt can arise from the evidence presented or lack of evidence presented.

You also need to realize that Florida law says that at trial, when the evidence concludes, if the facts present two reasonable explanations for what happened, one of which supports the Defendant's claim of self-defense, the judge should grant a motion for judgment of acquittal and not even submit the case to the jury.

While Zimmerman's account alone could be sufficient, the fact that W-13 (and I believe W-6) heard him say he shot TM in self-defense is considered corroborating evidence.

If reasonable people can view the evidence differently, the jurors likely will too, and if one of those views supports Zimmerman, it requires an acquittal.

The state's theory that GZ could have avoided any encounter with TM by staying in his car may be factually accurate, but it is immaterial, in my view, under the statutes and case law as to whether GZ acted in self-defense. TM could also have avoided the encounter had he not gone to 7-11 that night, or by going directly home. Zimmerman was in a place he lawfully had a right to be -- the public areas of his neighborhood. The state keeps saying TM wasn't doing anything unlawful. That's not the test. according to Florida law:
Quote:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

So please stop confusing readers with "well this could have happened" and "this hasn't been ruled out." That's not the test.

Try to think of it from the perspective of: The state presents its case first. What evidence -- testimony and exhibits -- will it present to show murder or manslaughter? Assuming it makes a sufficient case -- then the defense presents its evidence of self-defense. What does the state have to refute his theory that amounts to proof beyond a reasonable doubt his self-defense claim is not valid?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Found an old article from way back in April.....

(Worth reading the whole article)

We Are All George Zimmerman
Daniel Greenfield Monday, April 16, 2012

<SNIP>
George Zimmerman is not on trial because he shot a black teenager during a scuffle. It’s not the facts of the case that brought him here. It’s his name. Had his last name been Pereira, none of this would have gone anywhere. And it’s not the name alone, it’s that in this time and place, lynching him will help make the political fortunes of everyone from the man in the White House to his cheerful smiling prosecutor who is already counting her campaign cash and book deals.

Zimmerman, with his book of quotations from the great thinkers of history, a man who clearly believes in the old fashioned virtues, is particularly ill-equipped to understand what is being done to him and why. The quotation that he plastered on flyers while investigating the beating of a homeless black man and on his own website, is more apt than he realizes.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is indeed that good men do nothing, but as a corollary to it, those are exactly the sort of men that evil will go after. It does no good to read Burke quotations to a Kardashian society which makes its determinations, not on truth or justice, but on its omnipresent need for entertainment. Trying to reason with it only makes it angrier. Talking about virtues and decency to people who have none either confuses them or infuriates those few who understand the concept in some distant way.

...more at link
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/46011

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:42 pm 
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In another life (lol) I was married to a lawyer.

I do recall this "test" - but not sure in which instance it was applied, just thinking here. :66

"What would a prudent man do in such a situation?"

Not sure where/when or how this applies here, if at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:17 pm 
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A "prudent man" would NOT have been skulking around, and would NOT have attacked a stranger for no reason.

Trayvon was NOT a prudent man. (Nor even a prudent teenager)

I am a "prudent man" and I would have done exactly what GZ did.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Ha ha ... I don't think it means the dead person, but the one who did the killing. :47
Love you... :79


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:42 pm 
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I answered for both?

I think you still miss the point Joni.... it is important to evaluate TM's actions (as well as GZ's)... he is part of this, and not an "Angel" who's part in things should not be discussed.... read the "TalkLeft" article above... written by a respected lawyer. All the evidence supports GZ's version that TM attacked him.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:49 am 
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Rather lengthy Blog on the case....well worth reading the whole thing.
http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.c ... ification/

The Trayvon Martin Case, Update 14: Crumbling Foundations and Disqualification
25 Wednesday Jul 2012
Posted by Mike McDaniel

Many claim that the prosecution of George Zimmerman is actually a persecution of George Zimmerman.
It’s not a routine quest for justice using the normal procedures of the criminal justice system, but a political lynching, where the verdict is rendered first and the trial—in the court of public opinion particularly–follows. Whatever happens in an actual trial—if an actual trial ever occurs—is of far less importance than the social justice verdict, which is the verdict with absolute moral authority and the ultimate truth. That’s why an actual trial really isn’t necessary, you see.

It’s important, when considering this article and this entire case, to keep in mind the existence of those two realms and their essential qualities:

(1) The Court of Public Opinion: In this court, the verdict comes before the trial and is determined by those who yell the loudest, have the most current political power, or can most successfully cow the majority. In this court, facts matter only to the degree they support the predetermined verdict. In this court, social justice and victim group status matter more than anything else. In this court, there is money to be made in pursuit of “social justice,” and any outcome not sanctioned by the self-appointed ministers of justice may be met by deadly violence against the innocent. There is no rule of law and favored individuals and victim groups are more equal and credible than others. Publicity, the narrative and optics are everything. This court always seeks to tear down society and to impose its standards instead.

(2) The Court of Law: Here the rule of law and equality under the law holds sway. All are innocent until proved guilty. Here, evidence matters, and prejudicial statements and evidence are not allowed. Publicity doesn’t matter. This court seeks to uphold society’s highest ideals.

.......<SNIP>.......

FINAL THOUGHTS: (BBM)

We are now at an interesting point in this case. If there is any additional information harmful to George Zimmerman, it is difficult indeed to imagine what that might be. In addition, the Prosecution has written two woefully incompetent, perhaps even actionably unethical affidavits in this case, one in charging Zimmerman himself, and the other in charging Shellie Zimmerman with perjury. The judge has arguably violated judicial ethics in commenting on the character of George Zimmerman, on the evidence against him—despite the fact there has yet to be even a preliminary hearing—and has essentially threatened him with additional charges while suggesting his statements might have had some involvement in inspiring Shellie Zimmerman’s arrest. And now the judge must decide whether he should be disqualified. I can’t say it enough: this is the case from outer space.

On the defense side, it’s hard to imagine, outside a complete dismissal with prejudice, how things could be much better for them. Zimmerman’s self defense claim appears to become stronger with each new release of information, and apart from some juvenile threats by the prosecution, there seems to be no evidence harmful to Zimmerman likely to be forthcoming.

The situation regarding prosecution witnesses is mind boggling. There is former Detective Serino who appears to have made contradictory statements, but has surely made unprofessional statements, and in the middle of perhaps the most politically dangerous case of his–or anyone’s–career, apparently got caught leaking confidential information and demoted. This is generally not considered to enhance one’s credibility. Then there is Dee Dee, about whom no one is speaking these days. I would be hard put indeed to imagine a worse potential witness, much of whose testimony is likely inadmissible anyway. And now we have Ms. Meza Johnson who was apparently so intimidated by Zimmerman that she tried to sell her story, a story with accusations of non-crimes but no actual details or non-evidence to non-prove them. And on top of all of that, none of her allegations have any bearing on the case and no rational judge would ever allow her to testify. But in this case, who knows? I’m frankly expecting space aliens or zombies at any minute.

As I’ve often mentioned, I’m constantly looking for information that might in some way alter the course of this case, but I’ve yet to see it. I’ve little doubt this case is—should we say “interesting”—for the defense. They have to consider the court of public opinion, the actual courts and the presidential election, while trying to factor in the innate corruption of the Holder Department of Justice and whatever political maneuvering might be done on the state and local levels.

It will be interesting to see what the supporters of the narrative do with the FBI report. George Zimmerman has to be a racist or the foundation of their world view collapses. And Prosecutor Bernard de la Rionda simply can’t let go of the “profiling” meme despite Investigator Gilbreath being badly embarrassed when he could not explain what it meant or who put it in the original affidavit at the April 20th bond hearing as I outlined in Update 3.

Stayed tuned for additional updates–or alien zombie alerts–as sufficient information becomes available.

http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.c ... ification/

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:55 am 
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forensicpsy wrote:
I wonder if Tracy Martin's "God" allows him to shack up with Brandy Green (and her son) while he's married to Alicia.
I'm not sure yet if Brandy is married.

Good point about using God as a convenient weapon in this case. I'll never understand that tactic. Especially when Tracy is clearly not qualified to "cast the first stone!"

It's never been clear to me - where does Sybrina fit into the Tracy-Martin-Love-Schedule?


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