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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:10 am 
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Rumpole wrote:
THAT is the problem.

ALL would be OK.. I think the context and the fact that George was so willing to cooperate etc is important.

If BDLR were allowed to present bits here and there it would be much like a LIMPapa presentation.... distorted, giving a false impression.

In case it hasn't been posted here, a source knowledgeable on Florida law stated this will be a part of the jury instructions:

- If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether the defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find the defendant not guilty. However, if from the evidence you are convinced that the defendant was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proved.

Bernie seems to be stuck with trying to put fear into TM mind from the moment he noticed GZ scoping him out, but even if he's successful at that, he's only added doubt during time spanning from that moment up until GZ had to protect his own life. I think the rules change at that point, even if Bernie can make it look like GZ was working to be a vigilante.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:13 am 
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Rumpole wrote:
...
If BDLR were allowed to present bits here and there it would be much like a LIMPapa presentation...


Does that mean Bernie's going to be using soundtrack music for his opening and closing?

:DN4 :DN4 :DN4 :cool


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:25 am 
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John_Galt wrote:
BDLR's anticipated story:

GZ Background: Neighborhood Watch, prior calls to police about youth burglars, Neighborhood Watch meeting, training, not supposed to pursue or carry gun, GZ lives in neighborhood, familiar with neighborhood and streets. GZ criminal justice training. Knows the law. Implication: GZ knows how to conform his story to requirements of law.


I assume that the defense would object to the relevance of any of this information? Background does not help prove the instant charge, does it?

Also: Florida CCW law pre-empts any law, statute, regulation, or rule prohibiting concealed carry. Zimmerman's knowledge of neighborhood and its streets is pure speculation.

Quote:
NEN call: GZ profiled TM as a criminal...


Speculation.

Zimmerman said that he "looked like he was up to no good", and that he was just "wandering about", and "looked like he was on drugs or something". Insert toxicology report here. If Nelson prohibits it, one more obvious point for appeal.

Quote:
...because he was walking in the rain with a hoodie: fuarking punk, azzholes always get away.


Give BDLR some extremely minor points for motive.

Quote:
GZ followed, even after dispatcher told him not to follow.


Evidence? Without evidence, this is speculation, and I assume the defense will object on grounds of arguing facts not in evidence, or speculation.

Quote:
Looking for an address excuse is BS, GZ was still pursuing TM.


Speculation. No evidence.

Quote:
BDLR will reference NEN call as containing running and wind noise from running.


More speculation. No evidence of the cause/nature of the wind noise. And most importantly: even if it is evidence of Zimmerman running (moving quickly - defense will argue that he was in poor health/bad back, wearing work boots, and thus incapable of running), the wind noise stopped a few seconds after the "We don't need you to do that," "Okay" exchange.

Quote:
BDLR will reference GZ's prior calls to cops, purchase of gun as demonstrating GZ's evolution into crazed vigilante who wants to stop azzhole fuarking punk from always getting away.


More speculation, and arguing facts not in evidence.

Zimmerman purchased his handgun in December 2009 (after obtaining his CCW in November), in response to a menacing dog in the community, and at the specific advice of the police officer who responded to Zimmerman's report about the menacing dog: "Don’t use pepper spray," [the police officer] told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. "It’ll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter-second for the dog to jump you. Get a gun.".

Quote:
TM returning from 7-11: This is a big problem. I think W8 would get shredded. Chad might fold and his story is inconsistent with purchase of a single WMFJC and a bag of skittles. Not two drinks and no snack for TM. There is also the half time basketball game problem and why Chad didn't hear shooting and sirens and other commotion. The 7-11 video shows a scary hooded, pants sagging thug. 3 stooges drug deal might surface. So if I were BDLR, I would be inclined to skip the 7-11 trip and have cop testify about what was found at scene of shooting: WMFJC and candy. Not really pertinent where or why he bought items. No drugs, burglary tools, stolen property, no bag for carrying burglary tools or stolen property and no weapons. Just simple facts: We found dead kid with WMFJC, skittles, lighter, a small amount of money (no drugs or big drug dealer cash), headphones, cell phone, button. No gang tattoos, has his momma's name on his arm. Nothing consistent with any intention to commit a crime. Dead kid was staying with father and girlfriend in the neighborhood. [That simple little last part might be a problem, maybe just have cop testify that he subsequently located TM father staying in neighborhood and looking for missing kid. Don't want to open the door into why TM was staying in the neighborhood. Maybe Nelson helps out by banning mention of anything bad about TM.]


And all of it is irrelevant to the matter at hand: what happened to instigate and escalate the physical altercation between Zimmerman and Martin. I agree that Witness 8 has already served her complete purpose, and will never grace the inside of a courtroom.

Quote:
Timeline: If GZ was returning to his truck after NEN call, he would have been at his truck.


Zimmerman was under no obligation to go directly to his truck, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200. Obvious rebuttals:

- Zimmerman's stated timeline, including walking to the front side of the building, looking for a sign, and then walking back, fits entirely with the timeline of events
- The timeline, which includes 2 1/2 minutes from Zimmerman hanging up with NEN to the first witness 911 call connecting, does not provide sufficient time for Zimmerman to traverse 380 feet to Brandi Green's home, to chase Martin 380 feet back to the sidewalk T, engage in a verbal confrontation, and then engage in a physical altercation.
- If Martin was attempting to return home, he had more than ample time to do so, before Zimmerman ever ended his NEN call.

On its own, this point proves nothing - and there is GPS/ping evidence that will show, to some degree of detail/resolution, the relative paths of both Zimmerman and Martin.

Quote:
GZ had no intention of returning to his truck as evidenced by telling dispatcher to have the cops call him upon arrival, rather than meet him at his truck.


Speculation. BDLR is not clairvoyant, and cannot state as fact anything regarding Zimmerman's intent. Claiming the fact that he eventually shot Martin as evidence of Zimmerman's intent is logical fallacy, begging the question.

Quote:
..."have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at" GZ was hunting TM, didn't want "fuarking azzhole punk to always get away"


More speculation. More arguing facts not in evidence, specifically: "hunting".

Quote:
If I was BDLR, I would make that my mantra. Try to say it as many times as possible. GZ evolved into an obsessed gun toting Neighborhood Watch vigilante...


I would expect the defense to object every time BDLR attempts to do so. Such statements are speculative, represent facts not in evidence,

Quote:
...falsely profiled TM as a criminal...


Speculation. Facts not in evidence.

Also: Zimmerman indicated that Martin "looked like he was on drugs". Toxicology report confirms that suspicion. That confirmation corroborates Zimmerman's suspicion, and corroborates his state of mind/contradicts depravity of mind.

Quote:
...and consistently pursued him...


Facts not in evidence. Where are the GPS/ping location maps?

Quote:
...to keep "the fuarking azzhole punk from always getting away." Depraved state of mind.


Prior police/incident reports will corroborate that fear/concern regarding "punks always getting away" is perfectly justified.

Quote:
Confrontation / Fight: TM body and phone 30 or 40 feet away from T where GZ alleges he was attacked. GZ chased TM down the T.


Evidence of chase? None so far.

Rebuttals:

- 30-40 feet during an assault is nothing, and easily fits Zimmerman's statements
- Martin disappeared around the side of the building several minutes before the altercation took place. How/why was he anywhere near 30-40 feet from the sidewalk T?
- Debris field corroborates that the altercation started AT the sidewalk T
- The timeline does not provide sufficient time for a chase
- The dog walk path/area between the houses would have been dark, due to lack of lighting, and particularly so, given the weather conditions. Zimmerman's sight distance would have been no more than a few feet (as corroborated by Witness 6 testimony)
- Zimmerman indicates that he lost sight of Martin before he ever exited his vehicle, and when standing in the vicinity of the sidewalk T, told the NEN operator, "I don't know where this kid is"

Quote:
Witness heard confrontation moving in that direction.


More evidence that the altercation started in the vicinity of the sidewalk T - direct contradiction to the pursued/chased/hunted speculation.

Quote:
GZ advancing, chasing fuarking azzhole punk to prevent him from always getting away.


Speculation. Facts not in evidence. Where are the GPS/ping location maps?

Quote:
TM retreating.


Speculation. Facts not in evidence. Where are the GPS/ping locatoin maps?

Quote:
No GZ blood found in vicinity of T.


Irrelevant. Proves nothing. Why should there be any of Zimmerman's blood in the vicinity of the sidewalk T? He could have been sucker-punched in the nose by Evander Holyfield, and he probably would not have bled (much less, sprayed blood to the extent that any would be found at the location of the punch) immediately at the sidewalk T.

Quote:
TM has only one tiny cut on his knuckle. Inconsistent with administering MMA beating.


Plenty of witnesses corroborate that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Witness 6 testimony refutes speculation regarding inconsistency.

Quote:
GZ has minor scrapes on head, inconsistent with beating head repeatedly against sidewalk.


More speculation. Also, mis-characterization. The wounds were lacerations, not "minor scrapes". Blunt force trauma (such as head banging the ground/sidewalk) can present as either internal or external injuries. Mere existence of head injuries corroborates claim that Martin was aggressor and Zimmerman was victim.

Quote:
GZ sustained broken nose...


Prima facie evidence that Martin was the initial physical aggressor.

Quote:
...after he chased TM down...


Speculation. Facts not in evidence. Where are the GPS/ping location maps?

Quote:
..and attempted to keep him from getting away.


Speculation. Facts not in evidence.

Further: no evidence that Martin reasonably feared that Zimmerman would imminently use unlawful force against Martin; thus, no evidence that the broken nose was a justifiable use of force in self-defense.

Quote:
GZ started the fight.


Speculation. Facts not in evidence.

Quote:
Sybrina & Cutcher - TM was screaming for help. Poor little boy was screaming for help.


Cutcher impeaches herself. No "little boy" was present.

Sybrina: on cross, will be forced to admit that she has never heard Trayvon scream bloody murder as recorded on the 911 call, and thus cannot reliably state that the voice was her son's.

Rebuttal: eye-witnesses. Tracy Martin's admission (as witnessed by 3 SPD officers)

Quote:
[I think Nelson would be doing BDLR a favor if she banned the flaky voice experts. Cross-ex and rebuttal would be extremely ugly, and would make it appear that BDLR is engaged in a desperate attempt to BS the jury. Don't put Tracy on the stand for voice ID. Just Sybrina and Cutcher.]


If the voice experts are allowed: another point for appeal. Also, I agree that they will be detrimental to the State's case.

Quote:
I would also call W 6 so that the jury won't be surprised later, dark, not sure who was screaming for help, guy in red was on the bottom, but didn't see or hear blows struck, didn't hear head hitting sidewalk.


Witness 6 corroborates Martin's use of force against Zimmerman, and disparity of force (full MMA low mount, punching/knocking to the ground, forcibly restraining) that would itself justify reasonable fear of imminent risk to life or great bodily harm.

Quote:
Austin saw somebody on the ground, doesn't know anything else, didn't see anybody on top throwing blows, didn't hear blows or head hitting sidewalk.


I'm not sure Austin gets called. His recanted testimony would open up doors that the State/Scheme Team would not want opened.

Quote:
Medical / Gunshot: Kid is dead, shot in the heart by Z's gun. Shot placement intended to kill, not merely disable or stop attack. GZ shot to kill.


Use of a gun is inherently deadly force. Shot placement does not make the use of the gun any more or less deadly, statutorily.

Quote:
Aftermath: GZ astride TM, holding his hands apart, down, still trying to prevent the fuarking, azzhole punk from trying to get away. GZ still obsessed, depraved: keep fuarking azzhole punk from trying to get away. Depraved Neighborhood Watch vigilante gone wild. Not trying to help TM, not lying or sitting on ground as if he had a serious head injury or had sustained repeated blows to the head. GZ lucid and nonchalant, tells neighbor to call wife and tell her he just shot somebody, tells cop he shot the kid. No big deal, not agitated or distraught or dazed or confused.


Lots of more speculation, facts not in evidence. Neighbor eye witness testimony, EMT statements, responding police officer statements all support Zimmerman's self-defense claim, and refute such attempted nonsense speculation.

Quote:
[BDLR has already filed motion to exclude GZ's "I was screaming but nobody would help." as a self-serving statement. This is a very important motion, imho.]


How could this possibly be inadmissible? More grounds for appeal.

Quote:
GZ declined medical treatment beyond cleaning up blood from superficial abrasions.


Not relevant. Justifiable use of deadly force in self-defense does not require a severity-of-injury threshold. (Insert anecdote about the Utah soccer refereee here. )

Quote:
Then rest...


If this is all the State presents - speculation, theory, and no evidence - then I would expect the defense to file a motion to dismiss/acquit due to lack of evidence.

Quote:
...and see if defense puts GZ on the stand. Cross GZ with inconsistent statements if he testifies. Make him look absurd. You've lived in the neighborhood for how long? You are Neighborhood Watch and regularly patrol neighborhood. You have previously called police numerous times, yet you still don't know the names of the streets? Serious injury? Fear for your life? You thought you were sustaining life threatening blows to the head, but you refused to go to the hospital. Isn't it true that you had determined in your mind that TM was a "fuarking punk" ? Isn't it true that you had determined in your mind that TM was an "azzhole who always gets away" ? Isn't it true that you had determined in your mind that TM was a criminal intending to commit a crime in the neighborhood? Isn't it true that you called the police because you believed in your mind that TM was a criminal intending to commit a crime in the neighborhood?


There's almost no chance that O'Mara/West let BDLR attempt his argumentative, witness-badgering, leading/compound question, pitbull routine with Zimmerman on the stand.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:46 am 
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chipbennett wrote:
If this is all the State presents - speculation, theory, and no evidence - then I would expect the defense to file a motion to dismiss/acquit due to lack of evidence.


I fully expect that this is the reason for waiving the pre-trial immunity hearing. The big question is if Nelson were brave enough to dismiss/acquit could MOM then ask for immunity?


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:49 am 
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Thanks for doing that, Chip.

Almost a mock trial :)

Starring "John Galt" as Bernie de la la Rionda Image

and Introducing Chip Bennett as West/MOM :wall :doh

Who wants Deb to play Judge Nelson? Image :RTFM :29

Motion to dismiss...... Image


However... Rumpole... starring.... and playing the parts of all 6 jurors... after 20 minutes of deliberation, including a Image break
finds the defendant NOT GUILTY!! :91

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:08 pm 
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I wanna be Nelson. I say "NO" and "DENIED" in a very authoritative voice!


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Quote:
Thank you for visiting.

George’s trial is rapidly approaching.

Defense needs more time, and certainly more funds, to provide an effective defense. The state of Florida has unlimited resources in their totally unwarranted and malicious prosecution of George.

Ironically, individuals constantly seeking the spotlight to portray George in a negative light want to say absolutely nothing under oath. I’m not at all surprised. However, the lies these people have continually spread are slowly being brought to light. I wholeheartedly expect many more of their lies will be revealed at trial.

I continue to be amazed by what the state of Florida considers their ‘evidence’. It now appears the state has somehow found an ‘expert’ that hears words and sentences that only he can. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement and FBI experts, after exhaustive testing of the same recordings, were unable to hear any of these ‘mystery words’. (Where is Ms. Cleo when the state of Florida really needs her!!)

I’m extremely disgusted with Florida’s judicial system.

Again, thank you for visiting.

Robert Zimmerman


Love the Ms. Cleo line!


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Maybe O'Mara can hire Miss Cleo as a rebuttal expert witness. Reich can testify about voices that only he can hear and Miss Cleo can throw down some voodoo and declare that evil spirits have possessed Reich.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/a ... tent-with/


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:40 pm 
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They need to hire Ghost Hunters and have them explain the EVPs they picked up.

Hey, another question, did he get samples of the cockatoo so that he could rule him out as the source of the cries for help?


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Apparently the Cockatoo is confirmed..... all the cretins at JQ could hear it... once Ludwig TOLD them what to hear of course (Just like they can now all hear what Reich tells them to hear).

What Reich needs to do now is identify WHICH cockatoo it was.....

    Cockatoos........ being mainly white, grey or black and often with coloured features in the crest, cheeks or tail.


If the WAS a WHITE cockatoo (as is likely) then clearly it is a suspect!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:53 pm 
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Can you hear it?..........


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:02 pm 
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Speaking of the white guy. I was listening to the 911 tapes again and heard one I hadn't heard before. The woman on the call was saying that the guy standing after the shooting was black.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:08 pm 
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mung wrote:
Speaking of the white guy. I was listening to the 911 tapes again and heard one I hadn't heard before. The woman on the call was saying that the guy standing after the shooting was black.


That woman on the 911 call is Mary Cutcher.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:11 pm 
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mung wrote:
Speaking of the white guy. I was listening to the 911 tapes again and heard one I hadn't heard before. The woman on the call was saying that the guy standing after the shooting was black.

LondoJowo wrote:
That woman on the 911 call is Mary Cutcher.


That actually explains quite a bit. Cutcher may have joined Team Trayvon out of White Guilt, and penance for her own inherent racism.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:18 pm 
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A nutty witness like that caused yet another delay in the Jodi Arias trial today....

The ONLY witness left available as mitigation witness in penalty phase.... was reluctant... and then a complete "no show" finally.

Claimed threats disuaded her from testifying....but it seems clear she would NOT have withstood cross-examination and/or pleaded the fifth and refused to testify anyway.

In this case......I think Cutcher would be just as vulnerable... and in the end just be a waste of court's time.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Do we know who the lady was that was flipping out on the 911 call? She needs some serious help.


The main Trayvonite I spar with has a new theory of the day.

Quote:
“I didn’t think I hit him,” Zimmerman told police during the re-enactment. “I thought he was just saying: ‘I know you have a gun now. I heard it. I give up.’”

He said, with his own mouth, T only became aware of the gun because he HEARD it. That is a complete contradiction from his earlier claim T saw his gun and tried to grab it.


Funny, because I think that the two statements actually fit very nicely together when taken in the context that this the first statement was about what happened 2 seconds before the second statement.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:31 pm 
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"T only became aware of the gun because he HEARD it"

Seriously doubt Trayvon heard the shot I'm no expert though.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:45 pm 
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mung wrote:
Do we know who the lady was that was flipping out on the 911 call? She needs some serious help.


I think you are referring to "The Distraught Former Teacher" that Dispatcher volunteered to send an ambulance for...That would be W18.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:47 pm 
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mung wrote:
Do we know who the lady was that was flipping out on the 911 call? She needs some serious help.

You're probably talking about witness 18 the former teacher. There's some discussion about her on Talkleft.

http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2045.0.html


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:03 pm 
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ftsk420 wrote:
"T only became aware of the gun because he HEARD it"

Seriously doubt Trayvon heard the shot I'm no expert though.


I think it is possible that he not only heard it but remained alive for a minute of so. IIRC, there was one or two witnesses (maybe W6 and W13?) that described his arms in a swimming like position. By the time LE arrived his arms were tucked beneath.

I am no expert either.


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