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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:16 pm 
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Thanks Maltese and Rumpole,

I think it was all summed up succinctly in this


Quote:
He thought he was killing someone who was about to attack him – in other words, he did not intend to kill unlawfully, in his own mind. This is a fundamental aspect from a legal point of view.


So hat's off :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:34 pm 
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Masipa got it EXACTLY right
(What a shock an experienced Judge knows the law)
I rooted for a full acquittal.. but that was in part just a desire to see splodey heads from the chattering class. :Q37

I can see that Masipa got it right with CH. Well done... smart Lady :give

Assessors too. I wonder if the daft ones understand what "Unanimous" means?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:39 pm 
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Assessors too. I wonder if the daft ones understand what "Unanimous" means?

They do not seem to comprehend the difference between "finding of fact" and "application of law" so unanimous may be a stretch :51

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:53 pm 
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As I have said throughout.. one interest for me was to see how the system worked.. Bench decision rather than jury. I said many times I had "High hopes"

It worked a treat.. that part, in this case, but the system generally is too slow and drawn out. I can also see difficulties .. some Judges are daft too.

I have for some time been in favour of "Professional Jurors" Selected for smarts, lack of bias, common sense and given some training in law and Judicial system. Probably run like military reserves.. doing regular job but called up from time to time. Paid big bucks so that financial hardship not an issue.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:14 pm 
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I found the whole thing fascinating. I had never watched a trial before so I really couldn't compare it to a jury trial. I think the bench or professional juror system is a better route than a "jury of your peers" as I'm sure you know there are people who make their career's assisting with jury selection because juror's all come with some prejudice or another and each side wants that prejudice to favor them. Just imagine some of the judge/jury/executioner mentality people as jurors :94 not a curious bone in their body just simple assurance that they feel it so it must be true :30

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Juries generally are crap lol
My BIG disappointment with SA system was all the rubbish they let in at trial. Witnesses allowed to speculate on meaning rather than just tell what they saw (or heard). Hearsay crept in too. and the questioning by lawyers (especially Nel) was unpleasant involving bullying and intimidation. Of course all this happens in other jurisdictions to some extent, but not as blatant as this trial ( that I have ever seen) the badgering and asking same question over and over was especially bad. It is only human to eventually answer slightly differently. To then seize on that or perhaps seize on just one word and attack witness I would liken to "verbal waterboarding " :)

Nel was taken to task once for calling Op a LIAR but he came close many many times. That should no be allowed. Nel also OFTEN "put things" as facts.. when they were not. IMO responses under those conditions should be stricken. Evidence was shown to be "unsafe" and so should not have been admissible at all. etc Emotion rather than facts often. Nel had no case. He never made a case. The whole trial was like one long drawn out Opening/closing argument. Full of emotion and what ifs.. but with no evidence or substance. It took a judge to cut through the crap.. but that is a risky way to do things.
The SA system generally seems to allow in a LOT that is suspect and even plain wrong and untrue... decision by a Judge who can sort out what is OK is risky to say the least and would be unacceptable before a gullible Jury.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:52 am 
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I thought Nel's prosecutorial style was far more like an interrogation whit the goal of ending with a false confession. Constantly telling Oscar that Oscar's version could not possibly be true, telling him over and again that he killed Reeva. The theatrics of showing Reeva with her head wound. Calling him a liar. Making a production about a small nuance of a word or change of phrase that Oscar used. Frankly it made Nel look like an angry misguided bully. Just look at the foolishness of Nel demanding that Oscar heard Reeva scream that went round and round for a while until Nel was broken by Oscars silence, (another watershed moment for for Nel I think). Nel was at a loss when his bullying did not get Oscar to lie in whimpering acceptance of Nel's truth, Oscar continued to say the same thing as he said from day one , that Oscar did not hear Reeva screaming. This could not penetrate Nel's skull that Oscar was telling the truth and no amount of badgering by Nel would force Oscar to lie. That Nel could not bully Oscar shook Nel so hard that he simply threw his hands up and ended his verbal assault.

If someone is guilty and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty and you can prove it beyond a show of a doubt with forensics, evidence, and so on by all means clobber them over the head with the facts they are a dirty monster and you have the ammunition to prove that they are a dirty monster.

Nel could not clobber Oscar over the head with his guilt because Oscar is a flawed man but not a dirty monster but Nel could not let go of his notion that Oscar was a dirty monster. It is good to be a pit bull and have your jaws clamped around the throat of an irrefutable monster, it is not so good to be a pit bull and have your jaws clamped around the throat of a man who you have made a monster in your own mind, out of laziness of research, preconceived notions, personal animus, prejudicial looking at the evidence or simple human error. I think Nel erred very early in his reading of the incident on that fateful morning and he in put bull style never let go of his prey so that he might get a different perspective. It was IMO a very large error on Nel's part.

I know most people don't think Oscar was an impressive witness, including Judge Masipa, in my opinion, given his delicate state of his mind, his remorse and guilt for having killed Reeva and his extremely visceral response to Nel demanding that Oscar look at Reeva's picture showed the NEl did not know how to question Oscar. Something Oscar said when he was being cross-examined was that he didn't need to look at the picture of Reeva, he was there he saw it he smelled it, when he said he smelled it I knew exactly what he was talking about, blood smells, it smells like iron, and it is strong and it unmistakably the smell of death, literally the body ridding itself of life, if Oscar had murdered Reeva that smell who make him angry because it would be evidence of his guilt, it would be something he would consciously try to put out of his mind, it was one of the the first things to blurt out of is mouth that was eating away at his memory, it specifically haunted him. It is a smell that you will never forget and it was obvious that the memory of that smell did not remind Oscar of his guilt as in PM it didn't anger him, it destroyed him as it has permeated his body and is always there. it was a reminder to his mistake and to the fact that in his fear he took the life of Reeva. I believe Oscar's remorse in genuine. I do believe he is a suicide risk.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:45 am 
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It was interesting to see how the SA system worked. I agree that too much was let in and it was a slow process. This was a sad case all the way. Not sure I like their system.

I have lost trust in the US jury system and think too that a professional jury system might work for the better.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:11 pm 
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And so it goes;

Pistorius judge under police protection in South Africa after decision to clear the athlete of murder

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3DVFVh0wF


In a statement, three legal groups described a 'wave of criticism' directed at Masipa that in some cases could border on hate speech, defamation and contempt of court. 

The comments include allegations that the judge is corrupt, as well as attacks on her race and gender.

'In judging, there's a lot of analysis of the information before the court and applying the law to what is before you,' Thabang Pooe, a researcher at legal group SECTION27, said today.

'Attacking the judge's integrity and making insinuations of bribery or that she's not fit because she's a woman, or that she's black, means that you're breaking down the belief in the law.'

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:24 pm 
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Yes I have seen negative comments about Masipa. The Mob really are a negative force. They make a mockery of their cries for Justice. Clearly it is NOT Justice that they seek. I knew that they would "turn" when the result went against their silly delusional predictions about the case. I hoped (and posted) that they might turn on Nel. They turned on BDLR after the GZ verdict. Nel deserves a LOT of blame. Not for the verdict.. but for feed the Daft Mob with false notions and impossible to achieve expectations.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:29 pm 
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packy wrote:
It was interesting to see how the SA system worked. I agree that too much was let in and it was a slow process. This was a sad case all the way. Not sure I like their system.

I have lost trust in the US jury system and think too that a professional jury system might work for the better.


I am not suggesting that USA use the SA system. For one thing judges are susceptible to corruption and political influence and biases of their own, but I do see problems with juries. Seems the "average" within the Jury pool is not a very high standard. I don't see things changing any time soon, so we will have to just suck it up. I am serious about my suggestion to use "Professional Jurors" But I see no drive to even try that.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:51 pm 
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I think that there is no good answer but in the short run I prefer a bench trial. I think it is a coin toss between the chance of corruption and the chance of emotionality/stupidity and emotionality/stupidity seem to have a strong foothold in the world today.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:42 pm 
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I agree bench trial might be preferable, Carm... at least for some cases. However, I think it's the system, the defendant's RIGHT to have a trial by Jury of Peers. Do they get the choice or is that just in the movies?
I imagine some defendants WANT a jury of dopes ( people who can be swayed by appeal to emotion).. it's to their advantage.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:18 pm 
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In the US the defendant has a choice between a bench trial and a jury trial. Jury trial is almost alway's a better bet for most people. A bench trial is do or die with one person and that person being a judge is far less likely to be persuaded by the whims of emotion or public opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:29 am 
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Masipa's ruling;

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/ ... dgment.pdf

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:26 pm 
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Thanks Carm. :give

73 pages!! I will read it.. but not right now

(I'll put link in Reference thread as well)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:32 pm 
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http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/columni ... -pistorius

Yay.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:32 pm 
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Carmelita wrote:


Thanks so much for this! Have been waiting for it.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:18 pm 
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JuneBug67 wrote:
http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/columnists/2014/09/17/ignorance-fuels-feeding-frenzy-over-pistorius

Yay.

THANKS.. great piece (I will tweet it) :give

Nice to flesh links out a bit... attract the readers. Gnome sayin' :cool

Ignorance fuels feeding frenzy over Pistorius
by Leon Louw, 17 September 2014, 05:44

MY ADVICE to readers of this column at the beginning of the Oscar Pistorius trial was: "Prepare yourself for a feeding frenzy of certainty based on ignorance." These words were prophetic. What followed the judgment resembles the behaviour of a crazed lynch mob. The frenzy is so powerful that it has even sucked in some usually sober "legal experts" who should be explaining the judicial process. The hysteria reveals a most frightening aspect of human nature that has endured since savage times.

...more at link
http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/columni ... -pistorius

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:26 pm 
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Rumpole wrote:
THANKS.. great piece (I will tweet it) :give

Nice to flesh links out a bit... attract the readers. Gnome sayin' :cool



Yeah...sorry. I was too excited to be reading something so sensible. :p I did do it on 'another forum' though. Chose "One of the first things to be sacrificed on the altar of irrational passion is truth. A deluge of nonsense spewed from foreign media: the UK Guardian fabricates the notion that Pistorius invoked a "mythical black intruder". What, it asks, "must a man do to be found guilty of murdering a woman?" How about be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have done so? Just as they "knew" Pistorius was guilty before the trial, they "know" before sentence that "punishment will not be enough".

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